What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

I think Mike made a mistake by not sending Marines with Zuvala. To be sure, Abby and her people did an outstanding job, but as well as it went this time, I don't think you should depend on that as a general rule. Best to have the specialists along. The CLAC with the Marines would have been a wonderful idea. But even a freighter or fast transport would do if the CLAC was not available. A couple squads of Marines would be a very reassuring presence.

Don

n7axw wrote:I think Mike made a mistake by not sending Marines with Zuvala. To be sure, Abby and her people did an outstanding job, but as well as it went this time, I don't think you should depend on that as a general rule. Best to have the specialists along. The CLAC with the Marines would have been a wonderful idea. But even a freighter or fast transport would do if the CLAC was not available. A couple squads of Marines would be a very reassuring presence.

Don

One would have done a lot of service and likely not have been missed elsewhere. Clearly the RMN can manage that situation without the Marines, and clearly they're likely to have to - but if they could've nabbed a small and temporary contingent, they could have given them good work to do.

n7axw wrote:I think Mike made a mistake by not sending Marines with Zuvala. To be sure, Abby and her people did an outstanding job, but as well as it went this time, I don't think you should depend on that as a general rule. Best to have the specialists along. The CLAC with the Marines would have been a wonderful idea. But even a freighter or fast transport would do if the CLAC was not available. A couple squads of Marines would be a very reassuring presence.

Don

That's something that is easier said after the fact. All Mike had to go on initially was the report of an Andermani merchant, and she sent Zavala to investigate, and to do something about it it necessary. At that time she had no indication that the Manticoran merchants had been removed from the ship and were stashed in the space station, so she had no indication that Marines would be required. After this it is quite possible that she will include marines in such missions - she certainly did when she sent Terekov off.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think Mike made a mistake by not sending Marines with Zuvala. To be sure, Abby and her people did an outstanding job, but as well as it went this time, I don't think you should depend on that as a general rule. Best to have the specialists along. The CLAC with the Marines would have been a wonderful idea. But even a freighter or fast transport would do if the CLAC was not available. A couple squads of Marines would be a very reassuring presence.

Don

That's something that is easier said after the fact. All Mike had to go on initially was the report of an Andermani merchant, and she sent Zavala to investigate, and to do something about it it necessary. At that time she had no indication that the Manticoran merchants had been removed from the ship and were stashed in the space station, so she had no indication that Marines would be required. After this it is quite possible that she will include marines in such missions - she certainly did when she sent Terekov off.

Exactly right. Live and learn.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:We just don't know what the standards are for training for that sort of operation on the Roland; or what RMN doctrine says about it. Might be a few changes in the next destroyer.

YMMV

Rob

Good points. I think this kind of operation isn't going to stop, and I don't think destroyers (or whatever the small-end hyper-capable warship ends up being called) are going to avoid it. I figure their options are:
1 - Hearns Doctrine - have plenty naval officers and ratings trained and equipped to do this sort of thing more often, in addition to regular duties.
2 - The Return of the Marines - having Marines aboard even the smallest ships again, trained and equipped for this sort of thing in addition to integral membership in the ship-side functioning of even these smaller-crewed ships. (These two options are very nearly the same - the name and uniform are the chief variation, and maybe emphasis.)
3 - Automation for Boarders - apply that increased use of automation here too as both a force multiplier and to have specialist tools for that specialist sort of job. (And of course, training to operate it, so in that sense, it shades into the other two options.)

I don't think they are realistically going to be able to accept or interested in choosing:
4 - All We Have is Hammers: You Are All Nails - in which every such confrontation has ship-based weapons applied to it somehow
or 5 - Kamerlings All Over - in which specialized ships with generous marine complements (including specially trained hostage rescue teams) are the only ones sent to handle any situation which may end up like this.

Neither of those suit RMN tradition at all, or the political needs of the SEM.

Another option occurred to me from later in this thread:
6 - Return of A Few Good Marines - resume Marine assignment to the small-crew destroyers and light cruisers, not necessarily as parts of the normal ship-board working crew (though that would still be just fine), but in very limited numbers, e.g., one squad of 13 aboard a Roland, perhaps even less. In this case, they would be intended to suffice for missions calling for strictly limited numbers of Marines, but also as the core and spear-point for operations that would be filled out by naval crew and (sometimes) officers and/or automated systems.

When they aren't doing specifically Marine things, they've got time for training and exercise; when the ship is fighting, they are spare crew for damage control particularly. The DC personnel and equipment on the naval side would also most likely be the core of that naval supplement for Marine-type operations for which more bodies are required.

JeffEngel wrote: [Another option occurred to me from later in this thread:
6 - Return of A Few Good Marines - resume Marine assignment to the small-crew destroyers and light cruisers, not necessarily as parts of the normal ship-board working crew (though that would still be just fine), but in very limited numbers, e.g., one squad of 13 aboard a Roland, perhaps even less. In this case, they would be intended to suffice for missions calling for strictly limited numbers of Marines, but also as the core and spear-point for operations that would be filled out by naval crew and (sometimes) officers and/or automated systems.

When they aren't doing specifically Marine things, they've got time for training and exercise; when the ship is fighting, they are spare crew for damage control particularly. The DC personnel and equipment on the naval side would also most likely be the core of that naval supplement for Marine-type operations for which more bodies are required.

JeffEngle, while I'll agree that the lack of Marines is a problem (Mike Henke has remarked upon it, and the general lack of bodies for extra missions in MoH), I would make one note.

Most people are considering that simply putting the Marines in the 'Command Station" quarters would answer this issue (at least for short missions), and it probably would suit for the warm bodies. However, all the equipment and support items for those warm bodies (battle armor?) and the number of things that go BOOM! need to be put somewhere on the ship, and that might be a problem that the engineers who designed the Roland might not have considered.

Or maybe they did..you know engineers...

Just wanted to make the point that it is not just the bodies that need to be considered in this case.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:

JeffEngel wrote: [Another option occurred to me from later in this thread:
6 - Return of A Few Good Marines - resume Marine assignment to the small-crew destroyers and light cruisers, not necessarily as parts of the normal ship-board working crew (though that would still be just fine), but in very limited numbers, e.g., one squad of 13 aboard a Roland, perhaps even less. In this case, they would be intended to suffice for missions calling for strictly limited numbers of Marines, but also as the core and spear-point for operations that would be filled out by naval crew and (sometimes) officers and/or automated systems.

When they aren't doing specifically Marine things, they've got time for training and exercise; when the ship is fighting, they are spare crew for damage control particularly. The DC personnel and equipment on the naval side would also most likely be the core of that naval supplement for Marine-type operations for which more bodies are required.

JeffEngle, while I'll agree that the lack of Marines is a problem (Mike Henke has remarked upon it, and the general lack of bodies for extra missions in MoH), I would make one note.

Most people are considering that simply putting the Marines in the 'Command Station" quarters would answer this issue (at least for short missions), and it probably would suit for the warm bodies. However, all the equipment and support items for those warm bodies (battle armor?) and the number of things that go BOOM! need to be put somewhere on the ship, and that might be a problem that the engineers who designed the Roland might not have considered.

Or maybe they did..you know engineers...

Just wanted to make the point that it is not just the bodies that need to be considered in this case.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Granted and good point. Still, if it's a very small number of bodies, used to spartan conditions, the remainder of the space can presumably suffice for a carefully selected set of gear. A destroyer built for short-range, intense missions wouldn't need lots of spare ammunition and repair parts for the Marine equipment, either. If it does, and you design for that, you've less reason to call the result a "destroyer".

Also, some of the discussion is aimed at the next generation of destroyers and light cruisers (or whatever this sort of unit will be called), where some greater redesign is already due.

People have been discussing lack of marines and someone brought up Terekhov and Mobius, and the CLAC with marines. Trouble is, those are such different missions that the forces sent don't really have much in common.

Saltash is a single system, semi-independent but under OFS' thumb. There is a report of misconduct from a civilian foreigner (ally, but not proper intel). The forces normally available to OFS in Saltash would have been known to the TQ navies, including Rembrandt and Montana; that is the data Mike had as a starting point. So, she likely knew that there were a couple or three obsolete Ramparts. She didn't send a 5 ship contingent to overwhelm the Ramparts, but to impress Dueñas that his actions would have serious consequences. Zavala had, and ended up needing, authorization for force, but the idea was to nip the thing in the bud. If she thought a boarding action would be necessary, she could have fleshed out his squadron with a couple or three older Chansons.

Mobius was entirely different. The forces required needed to be able to counter an OFS/Gendarmerie force on the ground, and secure the system against an unknown naval force; there was already an on-going civil war there. It was unlikely that the Manticoran force would arrive before Sollie reinforcements, and even less likely that they would just surrender; even so, Terekhov had a minimal of force for securing an entire planet, and he will need the assistance of the locals to provide stability on the ground before he can leave.

In Saltash, you had a potential confrontation which might be settled without shooting. In Mobius, there was no such chance.

Future deployments will likely just include a few older vessels with Marines. Or, they will build a few more of the Wolfhounds, and Avalons for that purpose.

Lyonheart wanted to bunk Marines in the Rolands' flag space, but there would be no morgue for the armor, and no simulators for their training. There is enough space, but it already used for command and control systems and comms and, you know, STUFF. This was Hutch's point too.

Feel free to disagree.
Rob

JeffEngel wrote:

Hutch wrote:
JeffEngle, while I'll agree that the lack of Marines is a problem (Mike Henke has remarked upon it, and the general lack of bodies for extra missions in MoH), I would make one note.

Most people are considering that simply putting the Marines in the 'Command Station" quarters would answer this issue (at least for short missions), and it probably would suit for the warm bodies. However, all the equipment and support items for those warm bodies (battle armor?) and the number of things that go BOOM! need to be put somewhere on the ship, and that might be a problem that the engineers who designed the Roland might not have considered.

Or maybe they did..you know engineers...

Just wanted to make the point that it is not just the bodies that need to be considered in this case.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Granted and good point. Still, if it's a very small number of bodies, used to spartan conditions, the remainder of the space can presumably suffice for a carefully selected set of gear. A destroyer built for short-range, intense missions wouldn't need lots of spare ammunition and repair parts for the Marine equipment, either. If it does, and you design for that, you've less reason to call the result a "destroyer".

Also, some of the discussion is aimed at the next generation of destroyers and light cruisers (or whatever this sort of unit will be called), where some greater redesign is already due.

While I'm at it - For that next generation unit, if they are building it a bit larger than a destroyer, they may want to build it with some modular elements. For instance, with quarters/storage that can be configured without terribly trouble for either (1) flag staff and systems, (2) a Marine detachment, (3) additional stores for longer patrols, (4) (this one is a bit wilder, granted) systems to service and monitor a larger number of recon drones, for scouting work.

It wouldn't help in a case when you just have to go do a job with elements you cannot predict ahead of time, like Saltash, or even one where you wouldn't have the time for a minor refit. What it would do is leave the RMN with a better mix of mass production and unit diversity. They've traditionally satisfied that with a mixture of units of different generations with different emphases, and the whole range of destroyers through battlecruisers, at some times even frigates through battleships. But the MDM is squeezing the range of viable warships, with a far higher minimum floor, at 300-400 ktons. A more modular 300-400 kton "new light cruiser" or "heavy frigate" may be a way to satisfy that need for diversity at or around that higher tonnage floor. (For names, they may build that modular basis and use the destroyer/light-cruiser/whatever label depending on the module(s) used.)

lyonheart wrote:Hi Rob or Armed Neo-Bob,

Kudos and thanks for your attempts to reduce our wordy footprint.

<snipped >

However, since it probably took around 1.5-2 month's to get the word to Sol even via a db or DD, Rajani might have initially suppressed it since it didn't bode well for Filareta; ie imagine what might have happened if Kolokoltsov had heard about it, and decided Crawford might not be bluffing and sent someone to order Filareta to stand down without ever getting close to a missile launch situation?

<snipped>

Lyonheart, I think you are underestimating the delay. From Saltash, it looks like several weeks, even two months, just to get to Mesa/Visigoth, and then a couple more weeks to Old Chicago. The time lag is one of the biggest plot devices; I mean, tactical and strategic considerations. Everyone is acting on outdated information all the time.

{quote]Duenas might have thought he was an expert playing the system, but the system may demonstrate to him just how pitifully inept he really is; the worst sort of punishment.

If Zavala did as I've suggested and provided full details of Spindle, I could see Duenas realise Zavala was exactly correct as to how relatively minor the losses in Saltash are comparatively speaking, but how it emphasizes how outgunned the FF and SLN is, not something the OFS and SL need the rest of the verge to know just now.

<snipped>

Governor Medusa's response might be quite quotable.

[/quote]

Dueñas will never admit that any information Zavala gives to him might be real; same problem as a lot of the officers in the SLN. They have falsified and spun information to suit themselves so long, they won't recognize the truth for a while.

And I fully expect Roseandheather will happily quote any response by Estelle Matsuko, Baroness Medusa.

Regards
Rob