What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Well Helen may have been wrong about "Nothing smaller (or older) than a Saganami-C-class ship would ever be able to handle [Mk16s]" because she wasn't thinking of spinally mounting them. But she probably was fairly close to correct if you're talking about a conventional broadside mounting.

And the Sag-C is roughly 55% wider (at 74m) than the Avalon (48
m), and still almost 40% wider wider than the Roland (54m). Even if you went with something a bit bitter than the Roland as your new CL design you'd almost certainly have to do something non-standard to fit it with Mk16 tubes.

Based on previous discussions here it wouldn't necessarily have to be spinal tubes though... (as an aside, a hypothetical CL(L)'s diameter probably isn't sufficiently larger to let you fit in another row of spinal tubes - so it would likely have no more than the same 6 chase tubes a Roland has)
Some other options that were floated were:
* Asymmetric broadsides (tubes on only one broadside)
* Interleaved tubes (tubes and feeds that stretch past the midpoint so the breach of the port tubes nestled between the starboard tubes)
* Angled tubes (have the tubes in a chevron pattern, when seen from above)

Now all of those have survivability and damage control implications (as of course do the spinal tubes), not to mention ship design issues.

Thanks. Right then - I'll plunk down the guess that they will either (1) stick with an essentially Roland configuration for the hypothetical "Roland II" "new light cruiser", but with a bit more size for more people, more stores, more active defenses (to minimize the risks the hammerhead main batteries inflict) and more magazine size, and possibly more recon drones or a larger boat bay, or (2) swallow the initial cost and go with something very like a Saganami-C as the standard "small" workhorse cruiser.

I don't think the RMN really would feel the need for more than a Roland's firepower for a "small" hyper-capable warship. It's issues of endurance and cruiser mission capability that are open to welcome improvement. There's still some niche for the destroyer role, as opposed to the old frigate/light cruiser one. But given the reduced size of that niche (with LAC's for in-system fleet screening and Ghost Rider recon drones for recon), how much the larger hulls demanded by MDM missiles (even the smallest dual-drive ones) invite picking up the cruising capabilities at a much smaller marginal cost, and the change of their operational environment from the huge, intense fighting of the Havenite Wars to the long-distance, often independent, play-so-much-by-ear encounters in the conflict with the League and Alignment... keeping a separate design specifically for the narrowly destroyer niche may no longer be all that necessary or desirable.

You're most likely right. Although I could see them potentially adopting a slightly heavier throw weight, primarily to get a bit more redundancy.

Stick with the 6 spinal tubes but add, say, 2 tubes to each broadside; offset from each other so they fit. 4 overlong tubes hopefully wouldn't disrupt the internal layout too much...

n7axw wrote:The thing is, Rolands are small. They have been upsized a bit to allow to carry a decent load of Mark 16s along with the tubes to launch them. And yes there is a flag bridge. But I bet the thing is pretty cramped, probably more like the auxillary bridge on the old War Maiden with only the bare bones a flag officer would need to do his job. As far as a separate mess for flag officers, I bet not. If it's important for them to eat separately, if I were the designer, they would be eating on different shifts than the rest of the crew rather than separate Places.

The flag area is where the squadron CO lives and works. It's not one room with a tactical display, it's also the whole set of conference rooms, offices and quarters for the staff of a guy running the entire squadron. And the commander of the squadron is higher ranked than the ship captain, so he gets the same size or larger quarters. The XO and operations officer are the same rank as the captain of the ship. This is true all the way down. So yeah, it's a space equal to a large fraction of the total berthing space on the DD.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:The thing is, Rolands are small. They have been upsized a bit to allow to carry a decent load of Mark 16s along with the tubes to launch them. And yes there is a flag bridge. But I bet the thing is pretty cramped, probably more like the auxillary bridge on the old War Maiden with only the bare bones a flag officer would need to do his job. As far as a separate mess for flag officers, I bet not. If it's important for them to eat separately, if I were the designer, they would be eating on different shifts than the rest of the crew rather than separate Places.

The flag area is where the squadron CO lives and works. It's not one room with a tactical display, it's also the whole set of conference rooms, offices and quarters for the staff of a guy running the entire squadron. And the commander of the squadron is higher ranked than the ship captain, so he gets the same size or larger quarters. The XO and operations officer are the same rank as the captain of the ship. This is true all the way down. So yeah, it's a space equal to a large fraction of the total berthing space on the DD.

Hi kzt,

That certainly would describe the flag area on anything Saganami sized and up. But I would be skeptical of applying that description too literally to a Roland. A flag officer will have his flag lieut., his chief of staff. After that I suspect that there is a lot of doubling up of responsibilities going on. The flag area will probably accommodate three or four people at a time. And I could imagine a flag officier having his own ready room. That would be about it.

I will admit that I don't have textev for this. I am simply making deductions about room available on a destroyer sized hull along with assuming that even though the Roland is upsized from standard, the purpose of that has more to do with carrying an decent load of Mark 16s than it does the space needed for a flag area.

However, all of that being said, anything that anyone might have to add on terms of textev, pearls and so on,I am open to, because my picture of things could well be incomplete or otherwise inadequate.

Don

kzt wrote:<SNIP>
The flag area is where the squadron CO lives and works. <SNIP> The XO and operations officer are the same rank as the captain of the ship. <SNIP>

Uh, what XO? As far as I recall, the executive officer of a squadron is a division commander - on a different ship from the squadron commander.

akira.taylor wrote:

kzt wrote:<SNIP>
The flag area is where the squadron CO lives and works. <SNIP> The XO and operations officer are the same rank as the captain of the ship. <SNIP>

Uh, what XO? As far as I recall, the executive officer of a squadron is a division commander - on a different ship from the squadron commander.

-------------------

The squadron staff equivalent of the ship's XO is the Squadron Chief of Staff, who might (or might not) be equal in rank to the ship's CO (or XO); Different rank structure -- "Positional Authority"
At that level, each officer operates within their sphere of influence / authority and avoids usurping the authority of others.

-- Stewart

Hi Stewart, Guys;

It's great you've kept this thread going despite all the holiday hullabaloo, but we have the textev from SoF that Commodore Zavalla had an operations officer besides his CoS, who isn't the division CO, and a communications officer, which implies a full staff, however cramped some might be [though I beg to differ], so there's certainly room in the non-flag DD's to carry a couple of squads at minimum, given the conference rooms, commodore's quarters, including dining room etc.

Keep in mind that according to HoS, the Roland has over twice the hull volume of the CL Fearless with less than a sixth of the crew, so there is considerable space to spare.

Which ought to all be adapted with the squadron or fleet assets, without requiring any docking etc.

Given how well trained the sailors were on Shona station, the shipboard simulators can handle quite a lot of marine missions without any increase in the volume required, though that would certainly be welcome if it could be easily arranged.

Since only a third of the marines have battle armor, that 'morgue' isn't going to be that big, again not that much space required.

I'd expect to add a Hydroponics's Assistant and an SBA, besides a tech or two to work on the suits etc, but the total crew would still be only a 100, as opposed to the ~455 aboard the CL fearless in OBS [where there were few complaints about being cramped, except in the pinnaces], for about ten times the average personnel hull volume according to HoS, so I think finding the space is less of a problem than some are making it out to be.

If you think the MK-16's probably take up too much space, there are only 240 of them and assuming they're only 20% broader in diameter than the CA Fearless's 78 ton missiles that were 11 meters long and a meter in diameter [just over a meter longer than the CL Fearless's 70 ton missiles], to handle the mini fusion reactor etc for their 94 ton bulk; their volume is less than 12.5 cubic meters, and even tripling their volume to account for the ammunition storage and handling equipment, they still total less than 1% of the Roland's apparent volume while their mass is just under 12% of the ship's.

In order to match their fraction of the ship's mass, the missile ammunition and handling volume would have to be almost 43 times the volume of the missile [besides the missiles themselves], which is rather unlikely in my opinion, so yes there's some space available for marines, if RFC wants to go there, ie cut Abby and Mateo out of any marine action.

I'm not going to get into the Roland's hull density being apparently less than 11 pounds per cubic foot, just note it for future reference.

Keep smiling,

L

stewart wrote:

akira.taylor wrote:*quote="kzt"*<SNIP>
The flag area is where the squadron CO lives and works. <SNIP> The XO and operations officer are the same rank as the captain of the ship. <SNIP>*quote*

Uh, what XO? As far as I recall, the executive officer of a squadron is a division commander - on a different ship from the squadron commander.

-------------------

The squadron staff equivalent of the ship's XO is the Squadron Chief of Staff, who might (or might not) be equal in rank to the ship's CO (or XO); Different rank structure -- "Positional Authority"
At that level, each officer operates within their sphere of influence / authority and avoids usurping the authority of others.

-- Stewart

Hi Don,

Comparing a BC's 2200+ crewmen to a Roland's nominal ~71 seems a bit extreme.

Albeit 71 is up 14.5% from the 62 of RFC's old post on the Roland.

I'd expect the Wolfhound's 87 crewmen to include at least a couple squads of marines, who also operate some of the ship's grasers etc.

Given what they do, DD's should have a marine contingent, the navy credo "serve aboard Destroyers to see what the navy is really about" still has [or should have] some basis even 2000 years in the future.

So it should have been done already.

The War Maiden's crew was far larger than any Roland's, if it wasn't a third again the CL Fearless's [ie 8-9 times the Roland's], I'll be surprised.

The empty unused space aboard each non-flag Roland screams out for marines, and a single squad would also have too much space, so two squads makes more sense.

But then Abby and Mateo wouldn't have such fun.

L

n7axw wrote:These things are destroyers, guys. I won't go so far as to say what what everyone is suggesting can't be done. But I do wonder if we are talking about BCs in disguise.

The thing is, Rolands are small. They have been upsized a bit to allow to carry a decent load of Mark 16s along with the tubes to launch them. And yes there is a flag bridge. But I bet the thing is pretty cramped, probably more like the auxillary bridge on the old War Maiden with only the bare bones a flag officer would need to do his job. As far as a separate mess for flag officers, I bet not. If it's important for them to eat separately, if I were the designer, they would be eating on different shifts than the rest of the crew rather than separate Places.

Do you need Marines? Arrange separate transport for them and their gear. Also, Rolands probably are not going to be deployed solo. A squadron or a division, yes. In that case, they probably need transport for extra missiles anyway.

Maybe what you guys are suggesting is doable and sometimes its a case of needs must. But my bet is that no one would try it unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Don

Hi Weird Harold,

I believe it was SFtS that provide the most detailed look at the Roland besides RFC's old posts.

L

Weird Harold wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Thinking about it, it is not even clear why there is a flag bridge on a destroyer. I would have thought that if you were going to have a set of destroyers on detached duty, you would do as the SL did at Torch, where the flag was actually on a light cruiser, which could be larger and have a separate flag bridge.

I don't recall where, but there is a textev infodump that explains the problems the RMN encountered by not having sufficient small-ship flagships available.

One point not made directly, but having a flag deck does give the Rolands the capability of ferrying diplomats as well as providing facilities for squadron command.

Hi FallsFromTrees,

The FF Morrigan class CL isn't that much bigger than a FF DD, ie its often initially confused with the War Harvest and Rampart DD's it leads, NTM smaller than some non-SLN non-Haven sector DD's, before adding the Roland size into the mix.

RFC dealt with this in his old post and the SFtS textev, so feel free to review.

And have a very happy new year.

L

fallsfromtrees wrote:

n7axw wrote:These things are destroyers, guys. I won't go so far as to say what what everyone is suggesting can't be done. But I do wonder if we are talking about BCs in disguise.

The thing is, Rolands are small. They have been upsized a bit to allow to carry a decent load of Mark 16s along with the tubes to launch them. And yes there is a flag bridge. But I bet the thing is pretty cramped, probably more like the auxillary bridge on the old War Maiden with only the bare bones a flag officer would need to do his job. As far as a separate mess for flag officers, I bet not. If it's important for them to eat separately, if I were the designer, they would be eating on different shifts than the rest of the crew rather than separate Places.

Do you need Marines? Arrange separate transport for them and their gear. Also, Rolands probably are not going to be deployed solo. A squadron or a division, yes. In that case, they probably need transport for extra missiles anyway.

Maybe what you guys are suggesting is doable and sometimes its a case of needs must. But my bet is that no one would try it unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Don

Thinking about it, it is not even clear why there is a flag bridge on a destroyer. I would have thought that if you were going to have a set of destroyers on detached duty, you would do as the SL did at Torch, where the flag was actually on a light cruiser, which could be larger and have a separate flag bridge.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Stewart, Guys;

It's great you've kept this thread going despite all the holiday hullabaloo, but we have the textev from SoF that Commodore Zavalla had an operations officer besides his CoS, who isn't the division CO, and a communications officer, which implies a full staff, however cramped some might be [though I beg to differ], so there's certainly room in the non-flag DD's to carry a couple of squads at minimum, given the conference rooms, commodore's quarters, including dining room etc.

It's a destroyer. The RMN is used to cramped quarters. It goes something like:
1 - Badly Navy-cramped
2 - Navy-cramped
3 - SLN capture
4 - Closet

I'm sure the flag facilities aboard a destroyer are cramped ones. A separate dining and briefing area seems an excessive luxury.

All that said - Marines are used to cramped conditions too. I'm sure they will pride themselves on even more cramped conditions than pampered Navy sorts. So I'm not going to claim they can't fit a squad in there, without all the trimmings they'd like - they are likelier to grouse about not having vast training areas more than not having bunks you can lay flat on - but if it's looking like there "should" be room for hundreds aboard with nary a concern for space, something's missing from the model.

Keep in mind that according to HoS, the Roland has over twice the hull volume of the CL Fearless with less than a sixth of the crew, so there is considerable space to spare.

While the smaller crew complements and increased automation was for the sake of spreading crew further rather than skimping on cubage, I don't recall any suggestion that the new ships suddenly have six times - or even 1.25 times - the space per person available. If you have systems and crews used to X amount of cubage each and you are designing for a smaller crew, you'll design for less crew space, even down to the very same amount each - certainly not when magazine space is notoriously still so limited.

Which ought to all be adapted with the squadron or fleet assets, without requiring any docking etc.

Given how well trained the sailors were on Shona station, the shipboard simulators can handle quite a lot of marine missions without any increase in the volume required, though that would certainly be welcome if it could be easily arranged.

Since only a third of the marines have battle armor, that 'morgue' isn't going to be that big, again not that much space required.

I'd expect to add a Hydroponics's Assistant and an SBA, besides a tech or two to work on the suits etc, but the total crew would still be only a 100, as opposed to the ~455 aboard the CL fearless in OBS [where there were few complaints about being cramped, except in the pinnaces], for about ten times the average personnel hull volume according to HoS, so I think finding the space is less of a problem than some are making it out to be.

Average personnel per hull volume - HoS doesn't break down the cubage devoted to personnel. You seem to be supposing it's kept proportionate as crew sizes plummet. I'm supposing it wouldn't be - else they'd be laughing at the poor cramped Solarian ships - "why, these are almost as bad as what we had before they sent us off in warpalaces!"

What is occupying all that space may be an open question - I at any rate haven't an answer. But I'm pretty sure it's not space for absent friends.

If you think the MK-16's probably take up too much space, there are only 240 of them and assuming they're only 20% broader in diameter than the CA Fearless's 78 ton missiles that were 11 meters long and a meter in diameter [just over a meter longer than the CL Fearless's 70 ton missiles], to handle the mini fusion reactor etc for their 94 ton bulk; their volume is less than 12.5 cubic meters, and even tripling their volume to account for the ammunition storage and handling equipment, they still total less than 1% of the Roland's apparent volume while their mass is just under 12% of the ship's.

Those Mk-16's were large enough that the Roland had to be designed for firing them only through the hammerheads. The Fearless' missiles (such as they had, but the point applies in full force to the pre-refit fit) had no problem firing broadside. So there's that reason to suppose that they're much larger in volume - or more specifically, that the total firing system is vastly larger. How much and how, someone else may know better than I do or can find right now.

In order to match their fraction of the ship's mass, the missile ammunition and handling volume would have to be almost 43 times the volume of the missile [besides the missiles themselves], which is rather unlikely in my opinion, so yes there's some space available for marines, if RFC wants to go there, ie cut Abby and Mateo out of any marine action.

Or, we could figure it's made up somewhere else. (If you like, then maybe it's made up somewhere else just to give Abby and Mateo some action, although I'll credit him with being less clunky than that.)