What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:People have been discussing lack of marines and someone brought up Terekhov and Mobius, and the CLAC with marines. Trouble is, those are such different missions that the forces sent don't really have much in common.

Saltash is a single system, semi-independent but under OFS' thumb. There is a report of misconduct from a civilian foreigner (ally, but not proper intel). The forces normally available to OFS in Saltash would have been known to the TQ navies, including Rembrandt and Montana; that is the data Mike had as a starting point. So, she likely knew that there were a couple or three obsolete Ramparts. She didn't send a 5 ship contingent to overwhelm the Ramparts, but to impress Dueñas that his actions would have serious consequences. Zavala had, and ended up needing, authorization for force, but the idea was to nip the thing in the bud. If she thought a boarding action would be necessary, she could have fleshed out his squadron with a couple or three older Chansons.

Mobius was entirely different. The forces required needed to be able to counter an OFS/Gendarmerie force on the ground, and secure the system against an unknown naval force; there was already an on-going civil war there. It was unlikely that the Manticoran force would arrive before Sollie reinforcements, and even less likely that they would just surrender; even so, Terekhov had a minimal of force for securing an entire planet, and he will need the assistance of the locals to provide stability on the ground before he can leave.

In Saltash, you had a potential confrontation which might be settled without shooting. In Mobius, there was no such chance.

I'd definitely agree that the whole CLAC and Marines would have been gross overkill at Saltash, in hindsight or foresight. A Marine squad though, with even mere armored skinsuits - that would not have been much to include. Still and all, the naval personnel can adapt too and did.

Future deployments will likely just include a few older vessels with Marines. Or, they will build a few more of the Wolfhounds, and Avalons for that purpose.

It's something for the near future, at least. Further ahead, we're just speculating, but the RMN is in a lot of flux, both from the MDM/CLAC revolution and the rapid and massive change in its scope and missions. My bet is that the shape of those solutions is likely to look a lot closer to the Roland and its improvised work at Saltash than it is to older vessels, Wolfhounds or Avalons.

Lyonheart wanted to bunk Marines in the Rolands' flag space, but there would be no morgue for the armor, and no simulators for their training. There is enough space, but it already used for command and control systems and comms and, you know, STUFF. This was Hutch's point too.

Feel free to disagree.
Rob

Oh, I'd at most quibble around the edges on that one: you could maybe put in a very small number of Marines without simulators and without a real morgue for the armor, so you'd have to improvise workarounds for those on a temporary basis. Or go without proper battle armor. Not terribly satisfying all around, but maybe better than no such Marines at all for the job Saltash turned out to be, or could have been figured on plausibly ending up.

JeffEngel wrote:While I'm at it - For that next generation unit, if they are building it a bit larger than a destroyer, they may want to build it with some modular elements. For instance, with quarters/storage that can be configured without terribly trouble for either (1) flag staff and systems, (2) a Marine detachment, (3) additional stores for longer patrols, (4) (this one is a bit wilder, granted) systems to service and monitor a larger number of recon drones, for scouting work.

It wouldn't help in a case when you just have to go do a job with elements you cannot predict ahead of time, like Saltash, or even one where you wouldn't have the time for a minor refit. What it would do is leave the RMN with a better mix of mass production and unit diversity. They've traditionally satisfied that with a mixture of units of different generations with different emphases, and the whole range of destroyers through battlecruisers, at some times even frigates through battleships. But the MDM is squeezing the range of viable warships, with a far higher minimum floor, at 300-400 ktons. A more modular 300-400 kton "new light cruiser" or "heavy frigate" may be a way to satisfy that need for diversity at or around that higher tonnage floor. (For names, they may build that modular basis and use the destroyer/light-cruiser/whatever label depending on the module(s) used.)

JeffEngel,

I agree that meeting all of the missions of light ships with just one unit -- especially one with MDMs-- will end up being the long awaited 300K ton vessel (I vote for "Sloop!"). However, please avoid the nomenclature "heavy frigate." The sound of that seems to invite invoke the "Ghost of Lord Skimper's Past Posts."

And I do read his posts; however irrational he sounds, he thinks outside the box, and the people responding are interesting.

Ok, we're crossing posts, so I will comment on the other one here, too.

The main reason people are so hot for Marines to have been included at Saltash, is hindsight. It is worth remembering that until recently, the Manticoran Navy had sufficient presence (and Manticore had sufficient economic clout with the home ministries) that Dueñas' own superiors would have hung him out to dry. With the wormhole network closed, Monica, Spindle, and the whole Havenite War front to worry over, he figured on getting sliding through the cracks. As some one I liked put it, "too many fires and not enough people to piss on them."

I think it is safe to say that neither Mike nor Dueñas really expected a boarding action; Zavala grossly outmassed the destroyers there, Dueñas' refusal to admit his failure isn't rational. Your post seems to think it was inevitable; but it just another instance of abject stupidity. To paraphrase another person I like, "What mistakes have the Sollies avoided?"

Grist for the mill.

YMMV, of course.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:While I'm at it - For that next generation unit, if they are building it a bit larger than a destroyer, they may want to build it with some modular elements. For instance, with quarters/storage that can be configured without terribly trouble for either (1) flag staff and systems, (2) a Marine detachment, (3) additional stores for longer patrols, (4) (this one is a bit wilder, granted) systems to service and monitor a larger number of recon drones, for scouting work.

It wouldn't help in a case when you just have to go do a job with elements you cannot predict ahead of time, like Saltash, or even one where you wouldn't have the time for a minor refit. What it would do is leave the RMN with a better mix of mass production and unit diversity. They've traditionally satisfied that with a mixture of units of different generations with different emphases, and the whole range of destroyers through battlecruisers, at some times even frigates through battleships. But the MDM is squeezing the range of viable warships, with a far higher minimum floor, at 300-400 ktons. A more modular 300-400 kton "new light cruiser" or "heavy frigate" may be a way to satisfy that need for diversity at or around that higher tonnage floor. (For names, they may build that modular basis and use the destroyer/light-cruiser/whatever label depending on the module(s) used.)

JeffEngel,

I agree that meeting all of the missions of light ships with just one unit -- especially one with MDMs-- will end up being the long awaited 300K ton vessel (I vote for "Sloop!"). However, please avoid the nomenclature "heavy frigate." The sound of that seems to invite invoke the "Ghost of Lord Skimper's Past Posts."

Heh! Honestly, I hope to free the noble term 'frigate' from both the tiny armed ship fanatics and Weber's relegation of it to the smallest end of the warship scale and offer it up for re-use in the spirit of its Age of Sail use. It is, I know, an uphill battle, and it's not one to which I will commit my life, fortune, or sacred honor.

And I do read his posts; however irrational he sounds, he thinks outside the box, and the people responding are interesting.

Ok, we're crossing posts, so I will comment on the other one here, too.

The main reason people are so hot for Marines to have been included at Saltash, is hindsight. It is worth remembering that until recently, the Manticoran Navy had sufficient presence (and Manticore had sufficient economic clout with the home ministries) that Dueñas' own superiors would have hung him out to dry. With the wormhole network closed, Monica, Spindle, and the whole Havenite War front to worry over, he figured on getting sliding through the cracks. As some one I liked put it, "too many fires and not enough people to piss on them."

I think it is safe to say that neither Mike nor Dueñas really expected a boarding action; Zavala grossly outmassed the destroyers there, Dueñas' refusal to admit his failure isn't rational. Your post seems to think it was inevitable; but it just another instance of abject stupidity. To paraphrase another person I like, "What mistakes have the Sollies avoided?"

Grist for the mill.

YMMV, of course.

Rob

I wouldn't put Duenas' reaction and the use ("need" is too strong a word, in hindsight) for Marines there as inevitable. I'm in very nearly total agreement with you. I'm just pegging the likelihood of a boarding action when you know someone has seized merchant crews as significantly over zero. I think that's a fair estimate from what they knew going in, and that providing for that as a reasonable move to make - all else being equal, and if means were available, and if you were concerned that the means already aboard would not likely suffice.

In hindsight, that action was necessary and the means already aboard did suffice. My best guess is that they figured, for whatever boarding action may be necessary, if it were, then the people aboard would do it. Narrative reasons aside, they DID have the Hearns and Gutierrez team there, and who knows who else aboard the other destroyers, and may have figured that that would do well enough for what may crop up, or at least well enough not to divert precious Marines from elsewhere. They probably figured that based on large part on the reasonable guess that, while a boarding action had a significantly better than zero chance of being needed, those odds weren't high enough to justify tapping Marines - or taking the time to get them aboard.

I'm not faulting that analysis, given what could be expected ahead of time. I'd just like to note that, if I'm reconstructing it rightly, it does hint that the RMN does trust some naval sorts now to do Marine-style work when push comes to shove - or if it doesn't, it may need to rethink things some going forward.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Lyonheart wanted to bunk Marines in the Rolands' flag space, but there would be no morgue for the armor, and no simulators for their training. There is enough space, but it already used for command and control systems and comms and, you know, STUFF. This was Hutch's point too.
Rob

There is a crapload of space in the area to support a squadron command staff. Think about it. Where does the CO (Captain) sleep? Doesn't a Captain get a valet in the RMN? How big would a squadron COs quarters be? Where does his XO (Commander) sleep? Do you think this will be a broom closet? Where does the rest of his staff (3-6 officers and 10-15 enlisted) sleep? What are the flagship conference rooms used for when there is no flag staff?

It's all plot.

--snip--

kzt wrote:There is a crapload of space in the area to support a squadron command staff. Think about it. Where does the CO (Captain) sleep? Doesn't a Captain get a valet in the RMN? How big would a squadron COs quarters be? Where does his XO (Commander) sleep? Do you think this will be a broom closet? Where does the rest of his staff (3-6 officers and 10-15 enlisted) sleep? What are the flagship conference rooms used for when there is no flag staff?

Trying not to nitpick, but I think you meant Commodore? chief of staff, etc., because the ship(s) always have a captain and XO, and just replacing the flag quartering with Marine complements should work. Which I agree with by the way.

Leading to my ship design question, I always figured that the Roland's battle deck was designed to avoid the problem that occurred with HMS Madrigal, with an admiral crammed into a workstation space, aka the "flag operations" might simply be a larger bridge space, CIC, etc. with a flag officer's shock chair/consoles, etc. very close to but behind the captain's line of sight. Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:--snip--

kzt wrote:There is a crapload of space in the area to support a squadron command staff. Think about it. Where does the CO (Captain) sleep? Doesn't a Captain get a valet in the RMN? How big would a squadron COs quarters be? Where does his XO (Commander) sleep? Do you think this will be a broom closet? Where does the rest of his staff (3-6 officers and 10-15 enlisted) sleep? What are the flagship conference rooms used for when there is no flag staff?

Trying not to nitpick, but I think you meant Commodore? chief of staff, etc., because the ship(s) always have a captain and XO, and just replacing the flag quartering with Marine complements should work. Which I agree with by the way.

Leading to my ship design question, I always figured that the Roland's battle deck was designed to avoid the problem that occurred with HMS Madrigal, with an admiral crammed into a workstation space, aka the "flag operations" might simply be a larger bridge space, CIC, etc. with a flag officer's shock chair/consoles, etc. very close to but behind the captain's line of sight. Thoughts?

Courvosier wouldn't have been aboard a destroyer if a ship with a flag deck (only Fearless had one) was available. He had no business being on a ship that small; flag ships for such smaller combatants were so scarce they were using Star Knights for it in the first war. That was why they built them into the Rolands. Just why the Avalon's didn't get them is a bit less comprehensible, to me.

And the Rolands do have the space for Marines; just clear out the mostly unused flag deck facilities.

Regards

Rob

SharkHunter wrote:Leading to my ship design question, I always figured that the Roland's battle deck was designed to avoid the problem that occurred with HMS Madrigal, with an admiral crammed into a workstation space, aka the "flag operations" might simply be a larger bridge space, CIC, etc. with a flag officer's shock chair/consoles, etc. very close to but behind the captain's line of sight. Thoughts?

The squadron CO is actually the squadron commander. It's his full time job, he's not just a guy they keep bottled up until a fight starts. He needs an office and quarters with space for the ship COs to meet him for dinner. He needs a meeting room large enough for the COs and senior staff of the entire squadron to meet for briefings. His XO needs an office and quarters. The plans officer needs an office, the squadron logistics officer needs an office, etc. It's a LOT of space.

In combat, the squadron CO is fighting the squadron, he needs to have different focus than the guy fighting the ship the CO is on. So logically he should be somewhere else where they are not joggling each others elbows.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Courvosier wouldn't have been aboard a destroyer if a ship with a flag deck (only Fearless had one) was available. He had no business being on a ship that small; flag ships for such smaller combatants were so scarce they were using Star Knights for it in the first war. That was why they built them into the Rolands. Just why the Avalon's didn't get them is a bit less comprehensible, to me.

I think the Avalon designers wanted to got for a more conventional approach all around in case the Saganami-C and Roland's more radical moves failed somehow. Also, based on size, they may have figured on mixed Roland/Avalon squadrons, and tapped the Rolands for flag duty.

And the Rolands do have the space for Marines; just clear out the mostly unused flag deck facilities.

Regards

Rob

Opinions vary on how well that will work. I'm not sure the "no problem at all!" and "it must not and can never happen!" ends of the spectrum are actually represented by anyone. I'm somewhere in the "doable expedient in a pinch; don't expect it to be ideal" middle.

[quote="JeffEngel"]
Heh! Honestly, I hope to free the noble term 'frigate' from both the tiny armed ship fanatics and Weber's relegation of it to the smallest end of the warship scale and offer it up for re-use in the spirit of its Age of Sail use. It is, I know, an uphill battle, and it's not one to which I will commit my life, fortune, or sacred honor.[quote]

I would love to see that. A squadron of them rolling in to an SLN controled system.
RMN: "This is commodore Black Rock, CO of Frigate Squadron 47. Surrender your system."
SLN: "FRIGATES??? THOSE THINGS ARE BIGGER THAN MY HEAVY CRUSERS!!!"

kzt wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Leading to my ship design question, I always figured that the Roland's battle deck was designed to avoid the problem that occurred with HMS Madrigal, with an admiral crammed into a workstation space, aka the "flag operations" might simply be a larger bridge space, CIC, etc. with a flag officer's shock chair/consoles, etc. very close to but behind the captain's line of sight. Thoughts?

The squadron CO is actually the squadron commander. It's his full time job, he's not just a guy they keep bottled up until a fight starts. He needs an office and quarters with space for the ship COs to meet him for dinner. He needs a meeting room large enough for the COs and senior staff of the entire squadron to meet for briefings. His XO needs an office and quarters. The plans officer needs an office, the squadron logistics officer needs an office, etc. It's a LOT of space.

In combat, the squadron CO is fighting the squadron, he needs to have different focus than the guy fighting the ship the CO is on. So logically he should be somewhere else where they are not joggling each others elbows.

Right, but when you have 5 Rolands in formation (Saltash) and only one Commodore aboard (Zavala, etc.), you don't need those quarters, offices, etc. on a particular mission. So I think everyone is arguing that they could bunker enough marines, etc. in the unused spaces on the other four ships to accompany any mission. Yes, guys and gals?