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New ship idea

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Re: New ship idea
Post by stewart   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:07 am

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pushmar wrote:Haven't notices if this has been posted before; has anyone considered how a small LAC-carrier would be for a merchant escort? Holds perhaps 30 LACs. Military grade impellers and compensators. Identifiable as a military unit, not a Q-ship. A few modern Manticoran LACs could probably take on a Solly destroyer; 10 possibly a Solly light cruiser. Until the Sollies modernize, this would help them keep the League off their merchant fleet.


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During WWII the US and UK both built small carriers because they needed the platforms and converting a merchant cargo ship or oiler hull into an expedient aircraft carrier provided that. After the war, almost all the CVE's (Combustible / Vulnerable / Expendable) were retired with indecent haste. I believe the only one still in service after 1950 was the USS Cabot which had been transferred to Spain as the Dedaldo.

In short, SEM and the GA have no pressing need to build "down-sized" capital ships. The small carrier, in the Honorverse, as in ours, is significantly less capable than a large-deck carrier.

As convoy escort, either more Rolands (Mk16 DD's and CL's) or Wolfhound DD's and Avalon CL's (non-Mk16) would be effective, either with external Mk23 pods or as Hale Soule demonstrated with tractored LAC's (altho Ganny L had tractored FF's).

-- Stewart
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Re: New ship idea
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:02 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
n7axw wrote:Do we have any estimate on how many BC(Ps and BC(L)s are actually available? My own impression was that at the end of ART there weren't that many...


Hutch provided the numbers for Manticore and
Grayson. The Andermani aren't part of the GA, but can be expected to indulge in commerce protection in and near their area of influence, and the RHN will have commerce protection assets. Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of assets they have available or what their capabilities might be. (there is some information on Andermani ships, but they are not going to directly contribute.)

There are more Mk16 capable ships than I really expected and More Agamemnons which are Mk23 capable as well as Mk16 capable. (also Apollo capable in light-speed mode.)

There aren't nearly enough smaller ships; there are never enough small ships for convoy escorts, anti-piracy patrols, scouting, and screening duties, so your impression from ART isn't exactly wrong. There is going to have to be a lot of reliance on ERM equipped ships for convoy protection with just a leavening of a division of MK16/Mk23 capable ships in support. I would expect the use of pods tractored to the hull to be fairly common as well -- on both sides of the conflict.
And of course the RHN is part of the GA forces, but we haven't seen any sign that they have sub-wallers with ERM, DDM, or MDM missiles. Given their tech base it's be surprised to see ERMs (at least of similar raneg to the Mk14/Mk36) but they should have been able to build BC(P)s; though possible with fewer pods and less missiles per pod than RMN or GSN designs. But since we haven't seem it heard if them maybe they were too focused on building up their wallers and system defenses to worry about the small fry.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by Draken   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:23 pm

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Also waller is better ship and after they created Bolthole and have a lot of slips for capital ships, there was no point in building something smaller. Now they should start two things rapidly expanding Bolthole and start building Nikes and Saganamis there. It will have similar importance as Ruhr for Germany in Second War, for at least two years period. Bolthole and other Haven shipyards are their only source of ships. And until new yards will be ready we won't see any new designs, only minor modifications, because they need as many ships as possible and building new class is slower for at least first few ships.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:14 pm

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Draken wrote:Now they should start two things rapidly expanding Bolthole and start building Nikes and Saganamis there.


Minor nit - Haven will not be building any Nikes or Saganamis, at least not immediately. It's not just as simple as handing them the plans and saying 'go' - Haven's tech simply isn't up to producing state-of-the-art manty designs.

Haven's warfighting technology is certainly superior to anyone outside of the GA. However, Haven's *basic technology* level is not. They've made great strides, and Shannon has amply demonstrated that ingenuity and hard-headed practicality can produce amazing results even with worse tech, but their overall technology base remains inferior not only to the manties but to much of the sollies as well. They simply don't have the ability to manufacture all of the super-advanced technology that current manty ships are based around. It's the same reason why Beowulf, not Haven, is being set up to be the GA's missile supplier and is going to be producing the keyhole-II fire control setups for the new Haven-built SD class. Their basic technology level can handle that in a way that Haven's just can't.

For the immediate future while Haven is the only one capable of producing ships, they're going to be using designs which are essentially havenite. They're going to bolt on manty tech wherever they can, like the keyhole-II setups (and I wonder if Beowulf's tech would be up to producing manty-design compensators?), and I expect that we may see some somewhat-less-capable-but-still-good *havenite* implementations of manty tricks being added here and there (bow/stern walls? original-Shrike-level limited off-bore ability?), but we're not going to be seeing any more actual Saganamis or Nikes being built until Manticore has its shipyards up and running again.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

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SWM wrote:
Draken wrote:Also what about yards in Basilisk? Before Havenite raid there were yards and if I remember it correctly High Ridge rebuilt all orbital installations? Also we have new yards which are under construction in Manticore, if I'm right they could first build yards and start new ships and after that start building other part of stations.

There are no yards in Basilisk, and Manticore will not be building any naval yards in Basilisk.

Manticore is indeed building new yards in the Manticore system. In fact, if they have held to the schedule that White Haven outlined to the Queen, some of the yards should already be built and ship construction should be started by this time in the books.


Good points. We know that there are repair yards at Trevor's Star. Do we know that Basilisk doesn't have any yards at all?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:47 pm

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n7axw wrote:
SWM wrote:Manticore is indeed building new yards in the Manticore system. In fact, if they have held to the schedule that White Haven outlined to the Queen, some of the yards should already be built and ship construction should be started by this time in the books.


Good points. We know that there are repair yards at Trevor's Star. Do we know that Basilisk doesn't have any yards at all?

Don

I don't recall mention of those among the Basilisk infrastructure, and there shouldn't be. It's next door to Manticore, it's got no planetary industry, and it's not on any war front. Trevor's Star is next to Manticore, so spatially, the urgent need is not there, but given its position, its population, its history, it's going to have the defensive commitment already, repairs there can spare a few days for fleets fighting Haven, and it's got a lot of people on the ground doing their part to support the space-based industry.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by stewart   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:51 pm

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[quote="JeffEngel"]

Good points. We know that there are repair yards at Trevor's Star. Do we know that Basilisk doesn't have any yards at all?


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EOH and Ashes of Victory note no repair / construction yards in Basilisk -- only commercial shipping transfer and storage facilities in orbit near the terminis.

Trevor's Star has Navy Service facilities, essentially a couple of fleet repair ships, but no suitable construction facilities.

In the post-Yawata Strike conference with the Queen, White Haven noted that a potential recall of the Trevor's Star repair tech's was one of several options for replacing the lost personnel in the 3 Manty yards.

-- Stewart
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Re: New ship idea
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:21 am

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stewart wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:
Good points. We know that there are repair yards at Trevor's Star. Do we know that Basilisk doesn't have any yards at all?


-----------------

EOH and Ashes of Victory note no repair / construction yards in Basilisk -- only commercial shipping transfer and storage facilities in orbit near the terminis.

Trevor's Star has Navy Service facilities, essentially a couple of fleet repair ships, but no suitable construction facilities.

In the post-Yawata Strike conference with the Queen, White Haven noted that a potential recall of the Trevor's Star repair tech's was one of several options for replacing the lost personnel in the 3 Manty yards.

-- Stewart


David has said on Baen's Bar that the Basilisk infrastructure destroyed in the first war was rebuilt by a High Ridge financial boondogle program into a "mini Hesphaetus". We can assume there is a navy yard there, but like Trevor's Star, Marsh, and Hancock Station, its capabilities are only enough to maintain and repair the fleet.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: New ship idea
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:36 am

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Theemile wrote:David has said on Baen's Bar that the Basilisk infrastructure destroyed in the first war was rebuilt by a High Ridge financial boondogle program into a "mini Hesphaetus". We can assume there is a navy yard there, but like Trevor's Star, Marsh, and Hancock Station, its capabilities are only enough to maintain and repair the fleet.

Sheesh. Okay, I hadn't counted on them building yard facilities there as sheer pork. Well, I suppose it makes for a silver lining now.

In retrospect, I wonder if the MA would not have done better to thin out the Oyster Bay attacks a little more and provided even a single Shark to attack Trevor's Star, Basilisk, and Marsh too.
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Re: New ship idea
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:26 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Theemile wrote:David has said on Baen's Bar that the Basilisk infrastructure destroyed in the first war was rebuilt by a High Ridge financial boondogle program into a "mini Hesphaetus". We can assume there is a navy yard there, but like Trevor's Star, Marsh, and Hancock Station, its capabilities are only enough to maintain and repair the fleet.

Sheesh. Okay, I hadn't counted on them building yard facilities there as sheer pork. Well, I suppose it makes for a silver lining now.

In retrospect, I wonder if the MA would not have done better to thin out the Oyster Bay attacks a little more and provided even a single Shark to attack Trevor's Star, Basilisk, and Marsh too.


Hephaestus was more than the Navy Yards, it was the largest of the civilian industrial nodes. Any facilities built at Basilisk by the Liberal/Progressive/Conservatives as a "build the peace" initiative would have been civilian repair yards for the pass-through merchant traffic; not building capacity (which they had tons of, since they had stopped warship construction in the home system yards).

Also, it would have been referred to by WH after the Yawata Strike, when he listed the existing Navy capabilities.

Rob
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