The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Hi SWM,

Kudos, and thank you so very much for clearing that up!

So many threads get derailed when false assumptions are accepted as fact.

Thus I expect some detailed briefings by Beowulfers on Visigoth to the GA and previously to Chein-lu before he returned to New Berlin in the next book, for which we still don't have a title for.

He might have dropped off a BC squadron etc some distance from the termini to watch traffic from Mesa, and be ready to seize it when the news of Mesa's capture comes through.

L

SWM wrote:

Relax wrote:Where is the quote saying Visgoth is a Beowulf daughter colony? Not from my recollection is that true. Of course my eyes glazed over when re-reading the section of the MALIGN members.

There is no evidence that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf.

I searched the text for all references to Visigoth. There is no text evidence associating Visigoth with Beowulf other than proximity (60 light-years) and a shared condemnation of genetic slavery.

There are no references to Visigoth in the Pearls or in the FAQ of this forum.

I searched for the keywords Visigoth, Beowulf, and daughter in the forums. I also searched for the keywords Visigoth, Beowulf, and colony. There are numerous statements that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf, but no citations to evidence. None of the statements come from Runsforcelery or from anyone with inside knowledge. I also find a post (from myself) back in 2011 noting that there had been previous speculation before on the forum that Visigoth was a daughter of Beowulf but that there was no text evidence. The original posts where that speculation occurred disappeared from the forums in one of the data losses we have occasionally had.

The idea that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf is pure speculation which has inadvertently become accepted as fact on the forum. This misconception has been cropping up for about five years now (the first mention of Visigoth is in Storm from the Shadows, in 2009).

[edit]I should admit that I myself have occasionally forgotten that this is pure speculation rather than fact. [/edit]

SharkHunter wrote:I'd then assume that the Manticoran techs would fairly quickly get the "lane data" to proceed to Visigoth and take the terminus from that side. I've also decided that they wouldn't wait for the Beowulf referendum either, but announce that since taking Mesa, they can't afford to be surprised by a sudden transit of any non-GA warships into Mesan space.

JohnRoth wrote:This has been discussed numerous times. It's a good way to lose your task force.

I like the advice a character in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkoskegen books had about an officer who suggested an assault through a defended wormhole. "Shoot the officer."

SharkHunter wrote:Agreement in general, but we're not sure if the Visigoth wormhole is defended on their end. If so, obviously it's a different proposition, but otherwise it would be like the seizures in aRT and Shadow of Freedom, aka by surprise and armed /back under impeller before the junction folks have a time to go Oh S---! I just don't see them going "Beowulf to Visigoth" to seize it.

Visigoth is a member of the RF. The RF is run by the MAlign, and they've been working toward the breakup of the SL, so the notion that they don't have a pretty nasty SDF which can protect the wormhole terminus simply doesn't make sense.

SWM wrote:

Relax wrote:Where is the quote saying Visgoth is a Beowulf daughter colony? Not from my recollection is that true. Of course my eyes glazed over when re-reading the section of the MALIGN members.

There is no evidence that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf.

... snip for brevity ...

The idea that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf is pure speculation which has inadvertently become accepted as fact on the forum. This misconception has been cropping up for about five years now (the first mention of Visigoth is in Storm from the Shadows, in 2009).

lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

Kudos, and thank you so very much for clearing that up!

So many threads get derailed when false assumptions are accepted as fact.

Thus I expect some detailed briefings by Beowulfers on Visigoth to the GA and previously to Chein-lu before he returned to New Berlin in the next book, for which we still don't have a title for.

He might have dropped off a BC squadron etc some distance from the termini to watch traffic from Mesa, and be ready to seize it when the news of Mesa's capture comes through.

L

I don't think so, for one simple reason: The Anderman Empire is not going to do anything to irritate the Solarian League, like seizing a wormhole terminus belonging to a Solarian league member. They were deliberately split off so they wouldn't be involved with the war on the Solarian League.

JohnRoth wrote:Visigoth is a member of the RF. The RF is run by the MAlign, and they've been working toward the breakup of the SL, so the notion that they don't have a pretty nasty SDF which can protect the wormhole terminus simply doesn't make sense.

We've been told straight out that Mannerheim is by far the largest of the RF SDFs; I doubt they've got more than a squadron or two of wallers (given that Beowulf's 36 is on the large side). Having said that, it doesn't really take a heavy force to block a junction.

I doubt that any sizable force (or more than just one or two IAN warships) are going to be sent via any SL controlled or affiliated wormholes if the IAN sends a force to "deal" with Mesa.

Two parts to that reasoning. 1st is that even one IAN warship is going to cause a stir at either end of said wormhole and is going to become news. That news is going to going to spread and if there is any formal or informal notification by the entry end of the wormholes to the Astro Control or anybody elce on the other side of who is looking to come through and (more importantly) especialy where they are going afterward, someone might take percautions about the IAN showing up in their space. Things could get real unfriendly very quickly.

2nd is that you send a fleet or even a squadron of warships somewhere you probably haven't sent them before, people are going to get worried. At the very least, they will be looking for you to show up and wonder why you are there. The prudent way, from an operational security and effectiveness standpoint, is to skip any intervening wormholes you don't already control and make most of the trip in hyper.
Even if the IAN doesn't have a problem (yet) with Visigoth, Visigoth might be a bit touchy about an IAN fleet showing up and wanting to use it's wormhole to travel to Mesa. Somebody on Visagoth might suspect that the IAN-for some reason- was unhappy with Mesa and may be planning to do something involving massive amounts of force. If the Mesan government (and SDF) survives, it might bring repercussions.

Hi Brigade XO,

You're quite right IAN ships appearing in unusual places would be worrying, and we don't know how often the IAN frequents the SL protecting their shipping.

While Manticore is Beowulf's biggest trading pardner, its only a single system; the AE with its 37 prewar systems [as of 1900 PD] was easily the SKM's single largest polity trade pardner, according to the early textev, so I suspect its merchant marine, while not as big as the MMM, is still rather sizable and carefully protected, even if it means patrolling parts of the SL especially susceptible to pirates, of the transtellar etc encouraged varieties, preying on their competition.

Given that Honor met Chein-lu in early June, his IAN TF could have spent almost two month's training and practicing and then roughly two month's entirely in hyper to reach Mesa by late October, or 6 weeks assembling and training and 3 month's if necessary in transit, while still training etc.

Some TQ maps have indicated more wormhole termini near Mesa etc, and the MA should obviously have them picketed with their streak drive db's so their warning alert is at least a third less time than the IAN TF's transit time from any termini.

The MAlign might thus know the IAN's scheduled arrival, which might have pushed Houdini, but not share that with its puppet leaders.

Taking the Mesa side of the Visigoth terminus might be done by using a Q ship or two with lots of Mistletoe's and pods, that passes thru in panic into Mesa after a IAN TG appeared at the Visigoth terminus, to wreck the Mesan forts, otherwise a wormhole assault could be very messy.

I still think the IAN is going to show up sooner rather than later in Mesa, ie around a week or so at the most, before HA-H could, if she also wasn't waiting for the SLN's attack on Beowulf.

L

Brigade XO wrote:I doubt that any sizable force (or more than just one or two IAN warships) are going to be sent via any SL controlled or affiliated wormholes if the IAN sends a force to "deal" with Mesa.

Two parts to that reasoning. 1st is that even one IAN warship is going to cause a stir at either end of said wormhole and is going to become news. That news is going to going to spread and if there is any formal or informal notification by the entry end of the wormholes to the Astro Control or anybody elce on the other side of who is looking to come through and (more importantly) especialy where they are going afterward, someone might take percautions about the IAN showing up in their space. Things could get real unfriendly very quickly.

2nd is that you send a fleet or even a squadron of warships somewhere you probably haven't sent them before, people are going to get worried. At the very least, they will be looking for you to show up and wonder why you are there. The prudent way, from an operational security and effectiveness standpoint, is to skip any intervening wormholes you don't already control and make most of the trip in hyper.
Even if the IAN doesn't have a problem (yet) with Visigoth, Visigoth might be a bit touchy about an IAN fleet showing up and wanting to use it's wormhole to travel to Mesa. Somebody on Visagoth might suspect that the IAN-for some reason- was unhappy with Mesa and may be planning to do something involving massive amounts of force. If the Mesan government (and SDF) survives, it might bring repercussions.

lyonheart wrote:Snipped

Given that Honor met Chein-lu in early June, his IAN TF could have spent almost two month's training and practicing and then roughly two month's entirely in hyper to reach Mesa by late October, or 6 weeks assembling and training and 3 month's if necessary in transit, while still training etc.

Some TQ maps have indicated more wormhole termini near Mesa etc, and the MA should obviously have them picketed with their streak drive db's so their warning alert is at least a third less time than the IAN TF's transit time from any termini.

The MAlign might thus know the IAN's scheduled arrival, which might have pushed Houdini, but not share that with its puppet leaders.

Taking the Mesa side of the Visigoth terminus might be done by using a Q ship or two with lots of Mistletoe's and pods, that passes thru in panic into Mesa after a IAN TG appeared at the Visigoth terminus, to wreck the Mesan forts, otherwise a wormhole assault could be very messy.

I still think the IAN is going to show up sooner rather than later in Mesa, ie around a week or so at the most, before HA-H could, if she also wasn't waiting for the SLN's attack on Beowulf.

L

Brigade XO wrote:I doubt that any sizable force (or more than just one or two IAN warships) are going to be sent via any SL controlled or affiliated wormholes if the IAN sends a force to "deal" with Mesa.

<Snipped>

Lyonheart, I have to agree with Brigade XO; the Andies aren't going to telegraph their intentions by using solarian wormholes if they attack.

I bolded the parts of your post I am unsure of or disagree with.

Chien Lu traveled to the conference with Elizabeth in June via dispatch boat; as far as any text goes, he was last in the position of Silesian Station Commander. Which, he might still be, in spite of being his cousin's envoy to Elizabeth. After all, there was a perfectly good ambassador, already there in Landing. So, what task force are you talking about?

Regarding the wormhole maps, I have yet to see a map that makes a lot of sense; partly because the Honorverse isn't flat. But they are only putting in the ones already in the text, I think, aren't they?

You are advocating using Q-ships to take the wormhole at Visigoth? This is a solution to a non-problem. Manticore took the Trojans out of service and don't have the Q-ships in service anymore; the sneak attack on a wormhole terminus was a specialty tactic of the People's Navy, and unlikely to be emulated by the RMN; and Q-ships are not as capable as regular warships. The RMN has so much military superiority that they won't bother with Q-ships, or sneak attacks--if they want it, they'll just move in.

The only reasons not to already possess the Visigoth Junction are political, not military, IMO.

Regards, Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Regarding the wormhole maps, I have yet to see a map that makes a lot of sense; partly because the Honorverse isn't flat. But they are only putting in the ones already in the text, I think, aren't they?

Until recently, the Honorverse was flat. All of David's maps were originally drawn on paper, and David measured distances with a ruler. So those flat maps were actually accurate, as far as any description in the text was concerned.

It was only recently that David tried creating a three-dimensional map. I believe that we have seen only one example of an Honorverse map taken from a three-dimensional mapping system: http://www.gotshifted.com/honorverseglo ... iginal.jpg. This is sometimes called the illegible map. All the other maps can successfully be matched together into a continuous 2-dimensional map (I've done it). This map is the exception; it does not match the other maps. It is also the only map that really depicts the area around Mesa. This must be the map that Lyonheart is talking about, but none of the new wormholes depicted go anywhere near the Anderman Empire. The only wormhole routes depicted which could be used by the IAN to reach the Mesa area are Manticore-to-Lynx, or Manticore-to-Beowulf-to-Visigoth-to Mesa.

Three bits.... who captured Mesa? 10th Fleet.
Why not the Andermani? 10th Fleet got their first.

Here's my logic, totally not calendar based. When Zilwicki arrives back in the Star Kingdom, Honor tells him that Manticore already has word and that Cachat & co are safe, but only the highest echelons in the SEM know about it. I think that precludes time enough for word to go from Mesa back to the Andermani and then to Manticore. Likely the SEM at that point dispatched a courier to the Gregor terminus to get word to Rabenstrange and the IAN to "don't worry about the planet, we got that -- but the true bad guys aren't here anymore".

Visigoth Terminus? captured and "we the reader" haven't heard about it yet, or maybe not quite as of PD1921/current plot points. I don't think that RFC can leave that terminus out of the captured mix with 10th Fleet already in Mesa with spies nearby. Seems like a great starting point or included in the early part of any of the next books, yes?

SWM wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Regarding the wormhole maps, I have yet to see a map that makes a lot of sense; partly because the Honorverse isn't flat. But they are only putting in the ones already in the text, I think, aren't they?

Until recently, the Honorverse was flat. All of David's maps were originally drawn on paper, and David measured distances with a ruler. So those flat maps were actually accurate, as far as any description in the text was concerned.

It was only recently that David tried creating a three-dimensional map. I believe that we have seen only one example of an Honorverse map taken from a three-dimensional mapping system: http://www.gotshifted.com/honorverseglo ... iginal.jpg. This is sometimes called the illegible map. All the other maps can successfully be matched together into a continuous 2-dimensional map (I've done it). This map is the exception; it does not match the other maps. It is also the only map that really depicts the area around Mesa. This must be the map that Lyonheart is talking about, but none of the new wormholes depicted go anywhere near the Anderman Empire. The only wormhole routes depicted which could be used by the IAN to reach the Mesa area are Manticore-to-Lynx, or Manticore-to-Beowulf-to-Visigoth-to Mesa.

Thanks! I had seen that before, but didn't keep it.

the problem with the paper maps, is they only show small areas of frontiers: the area between Haven and Manticore, or the southern end (mostly) of the Silesian region. But there is no paper map published yet of the League, it's major systems, or outlying sectors.

It looks like Mesa is inside the shell (it likely is), with Meyers beyond as a recent protectorate. But how far Lynx is from Asgard, Beowulf, Idaho/Zunker; how it relates to the Erewhonese terminus (Jeremiah?); just how any of the Talbott cluster region is related spatially to that (unknown) Core--all that is just a big blank.

Very frustrating. I like maps.

Rob

Rob