The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Alrighty. Before we get bogged down on the SLN SD’s again (almost makes me yearn for the days of TWTSNBN), let me try and divert the masses with how I see the Grand Alliance use of forces (what the hey, Hutch, don’t shoot small….)

I am only going to consider wallers in terms of force deployment, as they are the ‘decisive’ ships involved. Other ships are critical of course, but wallers are still the decisive force in battle. For working numbers I am going to assume that the RH has about 700 SD(P)’s in its order of battle, the SEM has about 400, and Grayson about 200. YMMV, but I think that is fairly close. Obviously Haven probably has at least one more generation building/working up at Bolthole and that would add another 200 or so to the overall force structure in the next couple of years. Manticore and Grayson obviously won’t be building SD(P)’s for awhile, and Beowulf will need to keep its SDF close for the foreseeable future, since Old Earth is less than a week away and the Forum consensus is that we’re not going to attack there, so it will remain a persistent threat to Beowulf (sorry, rant over…)

So, you have a formidable number of ships…but sorry, you can’t use them all. First, I deduct about 15% for standard maintenance and upgrades/refurbishment. Admittedly, this might be less necessary than other times as most of the ships are relatively new, but the SKM remembers all too well the pause in the first Havenite War when they had to stop simply because too many ships needed too much maintenance. So Talbot, Trevor’s Star, and perhaps Havenite depots will be getting work on SEM/Grayson ships.

Then we deduct Home fleets, ships otherwise deployed (Talbot, Beowulf, Silesia, Allies, other Republic of Haven Systems), and I come up with about 144 SEM wallers (18 Sqd), 64 Graysons’ (8 sqd) and 296 RH (37 Sqd)available for offensive operations. You may think that’s fairly low, but there are dozens, if not hundreds of systems (counting the RH) that need to be defended, and Home Fleets will still be a major drain (especially post-Oyster Bay). So, a total of 504 SD(P)’s, or 63 BatSqds to take the offensive. Now, how to use them….

Here’s what I would do. (Of course, Hamish, Theisman, Yanakov, and Honor may disagree with my words of wisdom, but what do they know….).

1. Two major fleets, commanded by Tourville and Truman. Each has 13 Sqds (104 wallers). These forces should be capable of defeating any combination of ISLN ships likely to be encountered. They will be deployed to handle any large ISLN base(s) or heavily-defended areas (Yildun) that require the “Hulk Smash” approach. Mostly they will be the ‘muscle’ behind the raiding and diplomatic efforts (“refuse to negotiate? Well, hereeeerrrr’s Lester!”)

2. Sixteen (16) “visiting/raiding” task forces, with 1 BatSqd per force. They will be paying ‘visits’ to SL systems with significant SDF’s or ISLN units. That said, they will be primarily escorting diplomats who are there to discuss terms and how to avoid all the unpleasantness of war by doing what many of the systems are already considering…leaving the SL. If the systems prove unwilling, the force is large enough to deal with most concentrations and/or leave ships to blockade the system until future ‘diplomatic’ visits can be ‘arranged’. Presumably most of the systems will see the light (and the wallers), and come to an amenable decision with the GA.

3. Four “local” fleets, each with 5 sqds (one with 6). They will be located in each ‘quadrant’ of the SL, at a star with no planets but centrally located (see Tourville in Silesia in who) and not far from the nearest wormhole home. They provide the backup to the task forces and fleets above, if a nut proves too hard to crack, and a strategic reserve if the GA finds other targets to its liking (MAlign). They also act as Central command/control nodes for the folks back home to get messages to the far-flung units operating in Solarian space and for those forces to draw replacements/reinforcements/supplies.

And what of the ISLN dispositions? They have about 1500 wallers left after Crandall/Filareta, and add about 100 coming out of maintenance and new ships working up, so maybe 1600 available. I figure there is at least 300 at or near Sol system, and we have 600 still out at Tasmania, which leaves 700 or so SD’s scattered about the 600 or so Core Worlds (my estimate-YMMV). We know from textev that Battle Fleet seldom travels outside the Core, so most of these ships will probably be in nodal bases, so call it approximately 125 ships assigned to six fleet bases.

And none of them can possibly stand up to anything the GA throws at them.

So in pure military terms, the ISLN is done for, and probably within a year or less. But the real story will be the political maneuvering that will lead to a real peace for Manticore and its’ allies….and that is in the realm of diplomacy.

Hope the Manties and Havenites have a fair large share of Dominic Flandry’s and Jame Retief’s available. They are going to need them.

We shall see…eventually.

Hutch wrote:I am only going to consider wallers in terms of force deployment, as they are the ‘decisive’ ships involved. Other ships are critical of course, but wallers are still the decisive force in battle.

With all of the tasks for smaller ships, like commerce protection, supporting verge rebellions, dealing with Frontier Fleet, anti-pirate patrols in Talbot and Silesia, picketing Wormholes, etc, where are you going to find sufficient screening elements for all of your SD Squadrons?

For that matter, aren't you going to need a few SDs for a Show of Force in OFS Sector Capitols and other strong-points in the Verge and Shell systems, or to ferry and support diplomatic missions?

While I don't disagree with anything you have said, I would like to point out one thing. 144 Grayson or Republican wallers would be 18 squadrons, but 144 Manticoran wallers are 24 squadrons.

Weird Harold wrote:

Hutch wrote:I am only going to consider wallers in terms of force deployment, as they are the ‘decisive’ ships involved. Other ships are critical of course, but wallers are still the decisive force in battle.

With all of the tasks for smaller ships, like commerce protection, supporting verge rebellions, dealing with Frontier Fleet, anti-pirate patrols in Talbot and Silesia, picketing Wormholes, etc, where are you going to find sufficient screening elements for all of your SD Squadrons?

For that matter, aren't you going to need a few SDs for a Show of Force in OFS Sector Capitols and other strong-points in the Verge and Shell systems, or to ferry and support diplomatic missions?

How much direct screen do your capital ships really need? Battleships didn't start getting heavy direct screens until after self propelled torpedoes became common. Profit to that you'd have a few for scouting or anti-scouting use, or going for they back for relating flags from the flagship to the rest of the battle line.

But without a way for cruisers, or frigates, to threaten the battle line you didn't need escorts to keep the cruisers away from the battleships - the BBs would love to have them wander into range.

Jonathan_S wrote:How much direct screen do your capital ships really need?

Irrelevant.

Whether they're truly needed or not, RMN, RHN, and GSN naval doctrine calls for screening elements for SD squadrons.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:How much direct screen do your capital ships really need?

Irrelevant.

Whether they're truly needed or not, RMN, RHN, and GSN naval doctrine calls for screening elements for SD squadrons.

That is a lot less true now. Doctrine has changed. Modern GA fleets rely primarily on LACs for screening elements.

SWM wrote:That is a lot less true now. Doctrine has changed. Modern GA fleets rely primarily on LACs for screening elements.

For anti-missile screening, true. For other screening duties, not so true. They still travel with a squadron of BCs, a couple of squadrons of CAs, a couple of squadrons of CLs three or four squadrons of DDs, and have only added a squadron or two of CLACs to the mix.

Force mixes are still evolving, but nothing tells me that any of the GA Navies have gone to unscreened SD squadrons.

Quick Post then will give a more thorough post later.

SDP are irrelevant really. DD/CA/BC + Ammo Freighters are more than enough to eliminate the ISLN. Ammo Freighters carry more pods than SD'Ps. just that minor problem of missile supply. Assuming missile supply from RHN, then the only hurdle are distribution logistics and well, I have heard a bird in my ear, mention there are several thousand Manticoran freighters twiddling their thumbs...

There are what? approx 100-150 BCP/BCL that have keyhole, not that this is even needed. Each is effectively equivalent to an SD'P for force projection or home defense.

If the RHN/RMN wanted, there shouldn't be an operational ISLN SD or BC left in SL space 6 months from Filaretta's attack.

SWM wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Whether they're truly needed or not, RMN, RHN, and GSN naval doctrine calls for screening elements for SD squadrons.

That is a lot less true now. Doctrine has changed. Modern GA fleets rely primarily on LACs for screening elements.

I'm not sure we've really seen enough RMN and GSN naval deployments built around SD(P)s to get a solid feel for how they're actively screened.

At Marsh Honor had some cruisers with her, but it seemed a lot were off doing 'space control' mission; commerce protection, piracy suppression, showing the flag, scouting, gathering intel, etc. Detached work, not screening work.

Then for the Cutworm / Sanscript raids they were throwing most of the modern combatants along to thicken the force, provide anti-missile defense, and often to be the primary raiders with the SD(P)s providing security. But that was very much driven by expediency, rather than because that's the force that their current doctrine called for.

When 8th fleet came to the rescue during the BoM their BCs at least came as well. But since it was in a training a refit posture at Trevor's Star you can't really read much into that - we don't know if they've have been kept as close screen when the now slightly reenforced 8th fleet resumed the offensive or not.

And Haven is a bit of a different beast because their LACs aren't as capable anti-missile platforms, and neither are their SD(P)s; so they rely on smaller hyper capable units for much more of their close anti-missile screen than the RMN or GSN.


I'm not saying that a fleet wouldn't have attached DDs and Cruisers, I'm simply questioning whether any of the first tier navies still doctrinally call for anywhere near as many as they did before the 1st war. (And then we cycle back to the original question about the SLN and who knows what they'd desire or settle for in the way of a screen)

[quote="Hutch"]Alrighty. Before we get bogged down on the SLN SD’s again (almost makes me yearn for the days of TWTSNBN), let me try and divert the masses with how I see the Grand Alliance use of forces (what the hey, Hutch, don’t shoot small….)

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General comment --
As others here have noted, any screening elements would depend on the capabilities of the capital ships.
RMN and GSN ships can deploy Ghostrider Drones to provide the forward eyes that DD's and FF's do in our current navies; in the Honorverse, the RHN does not have (yet) Ghostrider, so RHN ships will need either more smallboys or be part of a mixed fleet with GSN or RMN.

Both Lester and Mike Henke have used DD's and CL's as forward contacts during and after a battle, keeping the long-range missile combatants outside opponent's effective range to "keep the other guys honest"

In short, any deployable combatant fleet will need capable small escorts; the RMN / GSN LAC's can provide a good missile defense, but DD's, CL's and the non-Mk16 CA's will provide the boarding party role.

-- Stewart