Future Space Lords

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

It's easier to find a competent person to be the civilian head of the Navy than for the uniformed role, and Hamish is only in a civilian role because of the political situation that existed at the end of War of Honor. What we'd really like to do with Hamish is get him back to a fleet command, but that's not happening any time soon.

drothgery wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

It's easier to find a competent person to be the civilian head of the Navy than for the uniformed role, and Hamish is only in a civilian role because of the political situation that existed at the end of War of Honor. What we'd really like to do with Hamish is get him back to a fleet command, but that's not happening any time soon.

Baroness Mourncreek would be an excellent First Lord again if, somehow, putting Hamish back in uniform and in the First Space Lord's slot were required - she's done the job before, she's done it well, the biggest issue would be finding someone else for her current cabinet position. (And the issue of having one of his spouses in the chain of command beneath him, granted, that too.)

But yeah, it'd be yet another instance of having to do something really peculiar in the face of disaster. Maybe not the oh-just-give-up-now scale of disaster - no seven people are that irreplaceable - but certainly one that may make for some outside-the-box solutions. (Or inside-the-box ones with names and faces that just aren't familiar to the readers.)

Edit: oh yes, it does also mean shuffling downward in effect Mourncreek - currently Lord of the Exchequer and effectively the #2 figure in the Alexander Government. So that's yet another problem, and yet another reason I'd suspect most of these positions would get filled from below by people we do not know.

That said - Hamish Alexander-Harrington as First Lord, with his particular uniformed background, isn't going to occupy the position with exactly the same role in it that someone without that background will. In particular, any First Space Lord is going to be able to rely on him as a partner rather than just a civilian superior. So leaving him right where he is can mean being able to tolerate a First Space Lord who is able to work with him well without having, perhaps, as much seniority or experience as one would like a First Space Lord to have, ideally. It's possible that experienced Second and Third Lords with the right frame of mind and uniformed subordinates could help out similarly.

I thought Admiral Hemphill was already Fourth Space Lord wouldn't she then be out also. I nominate the ball and chain, the beauty and beast, that dynamic duo: Scotty and Horace for Fourth Space Lord.

Yow wrote:I thought Admiral Hemphill was already Fourth Space Lord wouldn't she then be out also. I nominate the ball and chain, the beauty and beast, that dynamic duo: Scotty and Horace for Fourth Space Lord.

Well the honorverse wiki doesn't list who is fourth space lord at the time of the attack though she was fourth space lord in 1920 PD and had another period in the position at some point prior to 1919 PD. The question is does her being shipped off to Bolthole require her to stand down from the position, and whether or not she had already stood down from it.

drothgery wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

It's easier to find a competent person to be the civilian head of the Navy than for the uniformed role, and Hamish is only in a civilian role because of the political situation that existed at the end of War of Honor. What we'd really like to do with Hamish is get him back to a fleet command, but that's not happening any time soon.

Simply disagree.

Let's see. What are the qualifications?
-Managerial capabilities and experience on a par with, say, Neusweiler, or one of the Hauptmans.
-Understanding of naval operations AND strategy AND logistical requirements AND personnel issues equal to at least a competent senior admiral.
-Political credit and experience to horsetrade with all the players in both houses, ESPECIALLY the Lords.
-The trust and ear of the Queen, worthy to be incorporated into her innermost policy and strategy councils, and accepted as a counselor on issues that she herself is not expert in.

Nope. Don't think that pool is very large at all.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

drothgery wrote:It's easier to find a competent person to be the civilian head of the Navy than for the uniformed role, and Hamish is only in a civilian role because of the political situation that existed at the end of War of Honor. What we'd really like to do with Hamish is get him back to a fleet command, but that's not happening any time soon.

dreamrider wrote:Simply disagree.

Let's see. What are the qualifications?
-Managerial capabilities and experience on a par with, say, Neusweiler, or one of the Hauptmans.
-Understanding of naval operations AND strategy AND logistical requirements AND personnel issues equal to at least a competent senior admiral.
-Political credit and experience to horsetrade with all the players in both houses, ESPECIALLY the Lords.
-The trust and ear of the Queen, worthy to be incorporated into her innermost policy and strategy councils, and accepted as a counselor on issues that she herself is not expert in.

Nope. Don't think that pool is very large at all.

dreamrider

Larger than you might think. Seniority gets a lot of people into position to command . Good ol'boy club does the rest. Adm Hamish as First Lord of Admiralty cleaned house after Adm Janecek. So what's left over should be able to make a clean and good go at it . It's just the list we know and love is short. Oh and Adm Hemphill Fourth Space Lord was in System during Oyster Bay. Mine is Higgins for 1st and HH for 2nd still looking for 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th

Yow wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

drothgery wrote:It's easier to find a competent person to be the civilian head of the Navy than for the uniformed role, and Hamish is only in a civilian role because of the political situation that existed at the end of War of Honor. What we'd really like to do with Hamish is get him back to a fleet command, but that's not happening any time soon.

dreamrider wrote:Simply disagree.

Let's see. What are the qualifications?
-Managerial capabilities and experience on a par with, say, Neusweiler, or one of the Hauptmans.
-Understanding of naval operations AND strategy AND logistical requirements AND personnel issues equal to at least a competent senior admiral.
-Political credit and experience to horsetrade with all the players in both houses, ESPECIALLY the Lords.
-The trust and ear of the Queen, worthy to be incorporated into her innermost policy and strategy councils, and accepted as a counselor on issues that she herself is not expert in.

Nope. Don't think that pool is very large at all.

dreamrider

Larger than you might think. Seniority gets a lot of people into position to command . Good ol'boy club does the rest. Adm Hamish as First Lord of Admiralty cleaned house after Adm Janecek. So what's left over should be able to make a clean and good go at it . It's just the list we know and love is short. Oh and Adm Hemphill Fourth Space Lord was in System during Oyster Bay. Mine is Higgins for 1st and HH for 2nd still looking for 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th

As Far As I Know, I was responding against a statement that there were Lots More people who could fill the position of First Lord of the Admiralty adequately, and the SEM might hypothetically find itself in a position where it made some weird sense to demote Hamish to serve as 1st Space Lord.

Hmm. Yep, that's what I said above.

dreamrider

If things are this bad you may as well consolidate the RHN and RMN leadership as a single organization at some place like Bolthole. This would be interesting as it would make Thomas Thiesman effectively First Space Lord and cause problems with Hamish Alexander as well as he is Secratary of War to. R&H would hate it though, Sonja Hemperhill and Shannon Foraker would be in the same navy and chain of comand and article 119 would be a problem to Rose's plans.

BrigadeΔ wrote:If things are this bad you may as well consolidate the RHN and RMN leadership as a single organization at some place like Bolthole. This would be interesting as it would make Thomas Thiesman effectively First Space Lord and cause problems with Hamish Alexander as well as he is Secratary of War to. R&H would hate it though, Sonja Hemperhill and Shannon Foraker would be in the same navy and chain of command and article 119 would be a problem to Rose's plans.

I think it would take something much worse then the death of the current Space Lords to make the RMN and RHN command structures merge to form a single navy. Working together is one thing but merging them into one force would have civilians on both sides screaming bloody murder, especially when the inevitable rumors that this proves that one government has been reduce to a vassal state of the other get going

Roguevictory wrote:

BrigadeΔ wrote:If things are this bad you may as well consolidate the RHN and RMN leadership as a single organization at some place like Bolthole. This would be interesting as it would make Thomas Thiesman effectively First Space Lord and cause problems with Hamish Alexander as well as he is Secratary of War to. R&H would hate it though, Sonja Hemperhill and Shannon Foraker would be in the same navy and chain of command and article 119 would be a problem to Rose's plans.

I think it would take something much worse then the death of the current Space Lords to make the RMN and RHN command structures merge to form a single navy. Working together is one thing but merging them into one force would have civilians on both sides screaming bloody murder, especially when the inevitable rumors that this proves that one government has been reduce to a vassal state of the other get going

My thought was that if something managed to get through to kill every current space lord then the RMN is probably almost completely destroyed and the only logistic or command structure big enough to support the remains would be Haven. Also haven is so much bigger that they would be able to hide the new command post much easier and better then what was left of Manticore.