Point of View: Wishes and Likes

JeffEngel wrote:Benjamin Mayhew - at the hereditary social pinnacle of Grayson - can regale you about black sheep of his family long after you've gone to sleep or started inquiring about his mental health history. Michael Oversteegen's family isn't going to disbar him on Grayson, not among people who get to know him and his opinion of those family members. (And for that matter, Michael Janvier - Oversteegen even looks like the man's younger clone! with better posture - is a whole lot more shameful than Fraser.)

I'm not saying there's not plenty else to get grumpy about with Oversteegen; I'm just saying holding his family against him is silly, and not a sort of silliness Steadholder Owens is going to indulge in.

Do I sense a convert??

roseandheather wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Benjamin Mayhew - at the hereditary social pinnacle of Grayson - can regale you about black sheep of his family long after you've gone to sleep or started inquiring about his mental health history. Michael Oversteegen's family isn't going to disbar him on Grayson, not among people who get to know him and his opinion of those family members. (And for that matter, Michael Janvier - Oversteegen even looks like the man's younger clone! with better posture - is a whole lot more shameful than Fraser.)

I'm not saying there's not plenty else to get grumpy about with Oversteegen; I'm just saying holding his family against him is silly, and not a sort of silliness Steadholder Owens is going to indulge in.

Do I sense a convert??

Oh heck no! No, no. NO. *shudder*

Just because some reasons to think the Oversteegen/Hearns ship is a crack pairing doesn't mean there aren't enough good ones. I don't hate Michael Oversteegen. He's got some virtues to him. I do think he would drive Abigail Hearns up a wall, and that's really not a good thing in a partner. Better - much better - to let him hook up with someone who can see things his way and fit into the same world. Of characters we know, that fits Sonja Hemphill perfectly. Granted, I know that (assuming monogamy) is going to sink another favorite ship of yours, but then, I think Hemphill would drive Shannon Foraker up a wall too romantically. (I expect and encourage them to take off like a house on fire professionally.)

Abigail's got a busy career ahead of her for the next few decades. It's not conducive to romance. She's also going to have to deal with Grayson putting her in the wife pigeonhole if/when she marries and is back there. She'll have to have a spouse who can fit in on Grayson without having classic Grayson attitudes that will put her in that pigeonhole at home, either. That's a tall order. Assuming a dating pool consisting only of people we know, I'd consider Warner Caslett. By then - by now even - he does fit in on Grayson without being of Grayson, and surely will not have any notion that she should be at home minding the house and kids. And he's a very good man whose integrity and compassion would speak well to her.

as far as i can remember, benjamin mayhew's brother mathew isn't married, he's had a massive exposure to honour and manticore so is unlikely to thinking old style wife.

plus you just know some of the more annoying members of the keys will kick off if a steadholder's daughter tries to marry an off worlder, even one with grayson citizen ship via the protector's own.

Dauntless wrote:as far as i can remember, benjamin mayhew's brother mathew isn't married, he's had a massive exposure to honour and manticore so is unlikely to thinking old style wife.

Could be, could be. He's a fair candidate.

plus you just know some of the more annoying members of the keys will kick off if a steadholder's daughter tries to marry an off worlder, even one with grayson citizen ship via the protector's own.

I count that as a good thing!

JeffEngel wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
Do I sense a convert??

Oh heck no! No, no. NO. *shudder*

Just because some reasons to think the Oversteegen/Hearns ship is a crack pairing doesn't mean there aren't enough good ones. I don't hate Michael Oversteegen. He's got some virtues to him. I do think he would drive Abigail Hearns up a wall, and that's really not a good thing in a partner. Better - much better - to let him hook up with someone who can see things his way and fit into the same world. Of characters we know, that fits Sonja Hemphill perfectly. Granted, I know that (assuming monogamy) is going to sink another favorite ship of yours, but then, I think Hemphill would drive Shannon Foraker up a wall too romantically. (I expect and encourage them to take off like a house on fire professionally.)

Abigail's got a busy career ahead of her for the next few decades. It's not conducive to romance. She's also going to have to deal with Grayson putting her in the wife pigeonhole if/when she marries and is back there. She'll have to have a spouse who can fit in on Grayson without having classic Grayson attitudes that will put her in that pigeonhole at home, either. That's a tall order. Assuming a dating pool consisting only of people we know, I'd consider Warner Caslett. By then - by now even - he does fit in on Grayson without being of Grayson, and surely will not have any notion that she should be at home minding the house and kids. And he's a very good man whose integrity and compassion would speak well to her.

Congratulations, you just hit on my second-favorite Abigail pairing.

cthia wrote:

roseandheather wrote:MICHAEL OVERSTEEGEN.

*politely clears throat*

Sorry.

(Not sorry.)

But Oversteegen isn't culturally inept.

And Steadholder Owens may not like that union for other reasons, like the fact that Oversteegen has a black sheep in the family that even Oversteegen doesn't like.

Lady Deborah Fraser, Countess Fraser, was a Manticoran noblewoman and diplomat.

She was a distant cousin of Michael Oversteegen, who disliked her, believing her to lack both intelligence and integrity.

In 1919 PD, Fraser was the Manticoran Ambassador to the Republic of Erewhon. When Princess Ruth (being in fact Berry Zilwicki in disguise) was kidnapped by Masadan extremists, Countess Fraser placed the entire blame on the Erewhonese, further insulting an already angry ally. (CS1)

In that social class, a single rotten apple can cause your tree not to grow, by keeping you away from the altar.

Jeff Engel wrote:Benjamin Mayhew - at the hereditary social pinnacle of Grayson - can regale you about black sheep of his family long after you've gone to sleep or started inquiring about his mental health history. Michael Oversteegen's family isn't going to disbar him on Grayson, not among people who get to know him and his opinion of those family members. (And for that matter, Michael Janvier - Oversteegen even looks like the man's younger clone! with better posture - is a whole lot more shameful than Fraser.)

I'm not saying there's not plenty else to get grumpy about with Oversteegen; I'm just saying holding his family against him is silly, and not a sort of silliness Steadholder Owens is going to indulge in.

****** *

Benjamin Mayhew - at the hereditary social pinnacle of Grayson - can regale you about black sheep of his family long after you've gone to sleep or started inquiring about his mental health history.

It's funny because it's true.

I agree. Steadholder Owens isn't one to entertain a bunch of nonsense. However, he doesn't live in a vacuum. I don't think Owens would hold Oversteegen's family against him either, but other elements on Grayson I think would. The Mayhew Restoration hasn't just happened overnight. It's a work in progress. Allying up with infidels is a far cry from marrying them. You do remember what Honor went through and she's a Grayson heroine.

And I would understand any Grayson political reservations and resistance from certain Keys. What precedents would Grayson marriages to outsiders begat? Would special provisions have to be written into the Constitution? We're not talking about baseborn citizens of a particular Steading but Steadholder's sons and daughters.

I would be surprised if Steadholders haven't a law to marry Graysons and not foreigners (Masada sod). Much like the Manticoran Aristocracy has a law that commoners must be taken as spouses. I'd be very surprised if the Keys didn't detonate a stinkbomb over this.

Remember, a Grayson inter-racial (Manticorans as a race) marriage hasn't happened yet. It can't be taken for granted that it'd just bode well. We're talking about Grayson.

IMO, of course.

Dauntless wrote:as far as i can remember, benjamin mayhew's brother mathew isn't married, he's had a massive exposure to honour and manticore so is unlikely to thinking old style wife.

plus you just know some of the more annoying members of the keys will kick off if a steadholder's daughter tries to marry an off worlder, even one with grayson citizen ship via the protector's own.

I can't remember, was he young enough to get prolong?

Just had to post this as my last post put me on a double Nelson

cthia wrote:Steadholder Owens isn't one to entertain a bunch of nonsense. However, he doesn't live in a vacuum. I don't think Owens would hold Oversteegen's family against him either, but other elements on Grayson I think would. The Mayhew Restoration hasn't just happened overnight. It's a work in progress. Allying up with infidels is a far cry from marrying them. You do remember what Honor went through and she's a Grayson heroine.

And I would understand any Grayson political reservations and resistance from certain Keys. What precedents would Grayson marriages to outsiders begat? Would special provisions have to be written into the Constitution? We're not talking about baseborn citizens of a particular Steading but Steadholder's sons and daughters.

I would be surprised if Steadholders haven't a law to marry Graysons and not foreigners (Masada sod). Much like the Manticoran Aristocracy has a law that commoners must be taken as spouses. I'd be very surprised if the Keys didn't detonate a stinkbomb over this.

Remember, a Grayson inter-racial (Manticorans as a race) marriage hasn't happened yet. It can't be taken for granted that it'd just bode well. We're talking about Grayson.

IMO, of course.

Conservative Graysons were up in arms about a Steadholder not being married to the co-parent of that Steadholder's future heir, when that co-parent was certainly not a Grayson. (Although he's certainly someone of whom Graysons approve.)

So, yeah. With Hamish Alexander's foreign status as a total non-issue as the lover of a Steadholder, with the resolution of the issue being their marriage arranged by Father Church's leader himself, and with nary an eye batted by his foreign status by people eager to make trouble, I don't see effective trouble being made by a Steadholder's daughter (got plenty of those, and this one's not an heir) choice of a non-Grayson as a groom. If she up and wants to marry, say, a Masadan, then I can see a whole lot of fuss. If Abigail should choose one of Grayson's most prominent and respected immigrants as a spouse, the Keys would end up looking totally ridiculous making trouble about it.

Incidentally, marriage to a commoner isn't a requirement among the Manticoran aristocracy. It's solely a requirement for the heir to the throne - specifically to tie the throne to the commons and not the inbred aristocracy.

cthia wrote:Remember, a Grayson inter-racial (Manticorans as a race) marriage hasn't happened yet.

Erm... Judith & Michael Winton, technically.

And, well, it seems probable to me that with all the Manticorans and Graysons interacting over the past couple of decades, there were a fair number of pairings 'off-screen'.