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Point of View: Wishes and Likes

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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by roseandheather   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:43 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
Dauntless wrote:as far as i can remember, benjamin mayhew's brother mathew isn't married, he's had a massive exposure to honour and manticore so is unlikely to thinking old style wife.

plus you just know some of the more annoying members of the keys will kick off if a steadholder's daughter tries to marry an off worlder, even one with grayson citizen ship via the protector's own.



I can't remember, was he young enough to get prolong?


So far as I can remember, yes, he was.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to weep myself sick over the fact that Benjamin wasn't.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:44 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:Steadholder Owens isn't one to entertain a bunch of nonsense. However, he doesn't live in a vacuum. I don't think Owens would hold Oversteegen's family against him either, but other elements on Grayson I think would. The Mayhew Restoration hasn't just happened overnight. It's a work in progress. Allying up with infidels is a far cry from marrying them. You do remember what Honor went through and she's a Grayson heroine.

And I would understand any Grayson political reservations and resistance from certain Keys. What precedents would Grayson marriages to outsiders begat? Would special provisions have to be written into the Constitution? We're not talking about baseborn citizens of a particular Steading but Steadholder's sons and daughters.

I would be surprised if Steadholders haven't a law to marry Graysons and not foreigners (Masada sod). Much like the Manticoran Aristocracy has a law that commoners must be taken as spouses. I'd be very surprised if the Keys didn't detonate a stinkbomb over this.

Remember, a Grayson inter-racial (Manticorans as a race) marriage hasn't happened yet. It can't be taken for granted that it'd just bode well. We're talking about Grayson.

IMO, of course.

Conservative Graysons were up in arms about a Steadholder not being married to the co-parent of that Steadholder's future heir, when that co-parent was certainly not a Grayson. (Although he's certainly someone of whom Graysons approve.)

So, yeah. With Hamish Alexander's foreign status as a total non-issue as the lover of a Steadholder, with the resolution of the issue being their marriage arranged by Father Church's leader himself, and with nary an eye batted by his foreign status by people eager to make trouble, I don't see effective trouble being made by a Steadholder's daughter (got plenty of those, and this one's not an heir) choice of a non-Grayson as a groom. If she up and wants to marry, say, a Masadan, then I can see a whole lot of fuss. If Abigail should choose one of Grayson's most prominent and respected immigrants as a spouse, the Keys would end up looking totally ridiculous making trouble about it.

Incidentally, marriage to a commoner isn't a requirement among the Manticoran aristocracy. It's solely a requirement for the heir to the throne - specifically to tie the throne to the commons and not the inbred aristocracy.

Jeff, of course I could be mistaken regarding my memory of the events. But IIRC, the Conservative Graysons weren't so much as harping on there not being a traditional union in the form of a marriage between the two; that wasn't what was getting their knickers all in a twist. They were protesting the admittance of the heir. They did not want to allow Honor's heir. Harping on the fact that there was no marriage was the leverage, they'd hoped. However, Reverend Jeremiah Sullivan threw a curve in the form of a monkey-wrench that caught them completely unawares and off-balance - which bit them in the proverbial backside. Am I incorrect here? I certainly could be without a reread.

Now I know that even entertaining the fact that Honor wasn't married may have negatively impacted the Conservatives in the long run, per our current discussion. And that reasoning is just a small step away from native Graysons marrying foreigners. But Honor has always been treated as a special case Grayson, whose grading on a political and religious curve was never accepted for Graysons proper.

And thanks for correcting my misleading thought about the law to marry commoners applying to anyone but heirs.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:53 pm

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I do believe that you are correct that the lack of marriage was the excuse they were trying to use.

never understood why to be honest. I would have though that they would have preferred a potential male heir after the fight to make faith miss harrington.

as was pointed out at the time illegitimate male heirs had succeed to the steadholdership several times in the past when it was even harder to prove paternity.

Honor is treated differently, and though they shouldn't the trouble makers in the keys would use a marriage between Abigail and a non-grayson born as another specious (is that the right word?) excuse to cause more trouble.

I sympathise with those who see that as an even better reason to go ahead with it, but do wonder if that political fight is worth the cost at this time. given another 2 decades and most of the "old guard" will be at death's door and in no state to argue their (flawed) case. saving the waste of useful political capital, which could be used on something more useful, like say a colony in another system, asteriod or planet based.
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:50 pm

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Dauntless wrote:I do believe that you are correct that the lack of marriage was the excuse they were trying to use.

never understood why to be honest. I would have though that they would have preferred a potential male heir after the fight to make faith miss harrington.

as was pointed out at the time illegitimate male heirs had succeed to the steadholdership several times in the past when it was even harder to prove paternity.

Honor is treated differently, and though they shouldn't the trouble makers in the keys would use a marriage between Abigail and a non-grayson born as another specious (is that the right word?) excuse to cause more trouble.

I sympathise with those who see that as an even better reason to go ahead with it, but do wonder if that political fight is worth the cost at this time. given another 2 decades and most of the "old guard" will be at death's door and in no state to argue their (flawed) case. saving the waste of useful political capital, which could be used on something more useful, like say a colony in another system, asteriod or planet based.

Indeed. And thus is the reason that I say Steadholder Owens would have problems with it. Not so much as his objection to a Manticoran, but because of all of the political headache his daughter's unprecedented choice may incite - whose backlash would undoubtedly spray on him.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:19 pm

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cthia wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:Conservative Graysons were up in arms about a Steadholder not being married to the co-parent of that Steadholder's future heir, when that co-parent was certainly not a Grayson. (Although he's certainly someone of whom Graysons approve.)

So, yeah. With Hamish Alexander's foreign status as a total non-issue as the lover of a Steadholder, with the resolution of the issue being their marriage arranged by Father Church's leader himself, and with nary an eye batted by his foreign status by people eager to make trouble, I don't see effective trouble being made by a Steadholder's daughter (got plenty of those, and this one's not an heir) choice of a non-Grayson as a groom. If she up and wants to marry, say, a Masadan, then I can see a whole lot of fuss. If Abigail should choose one of Grayson's most prominent and respected immigrants as a spouse, the Keys would end up looking totally ridiculous making trouble about it.

Jeff, of course I could be mistaken regarding my memory of the events. But IIRC, the Conservative Graysons weren't so much as harping on there not being a traditional union in the form of a marriage between the two; that wasn't what was getting their knickers all in a twist. They were protesting the admittance of the heir. They did not want to allow Honor's heir. Harping on the fact that there was no marriage was the leverage, they'd hoped. However, Reverend Jeremiah Sullivan threw a curve in the form of a monkey-wrench that caught them completely unawares and off-balance - which bit them in the proverbial backside. Am I incorrect here? I certainly could be without a reread.
Mostly it was an opportunity to smear her. I doubt they figured they had practical constitutional standing to stop Raoul's inheritance on the issue of bastardy, given how routinely it was waived to get any son of a Steadholder inheriting the steading when no legitimate son was available. It was effectively another round of messing with her reputation and, by association, Benjamin Mayhew's, on the basis of sex outside marriage as with Paul Tankersley. (With added nastiness, because it was ongoing instead of to do with a dead man, and because the lover was married to someone else.)

But still, it's telling what was the basis of it. It was never that the heir should have a parent not of Grayson: it was that the heir should be born outside marriage. And in either case, it's directed at the Steadholder for behaving this way. Given that the relevant sin, by people really looking hard for a sin to pin on her, had nothing to do with Hamish Alexander's or Paul Tankersley's nationality (or even religion) and everything to do with sex outside marriage and Steadholder conduct, I'm confident that the conservative/opposition Steadholders would not even think that marriage to an outworlder would be a big deal for a Steadholder, much less a Steadholder's non-heir daughter.

And if there was a problem, I strongly suspect they'd run it on suggestions that the resulting heir wouldn't be a member of the Church of Humanity Unchained, another attack they've run on Honor. But in Abigail's case, with the Owens Steading not something running down her branch of the family at all, even that could not be an issue.

I suppose, if they are rummaging around the bottom of the insult barrel, they could mutter about how Grayson women are abandoning Grayson men when they put on uniforms and fight. But with so many of the people in Grayson uniform and workforce now being either (1) immigrants, (2) women, or (3) immigrant women, they would likely find themselves heading out from "opposition politicians" toward "embarrassing lunatic fringe" in a hurry trying that.
Now I know that even entertaining the fact that Honor wasn't married may have negatively impacted the Conservatives in the long run, per our current discussion. And that reasoning is just a small step away from native Graysons marrying foreigners. But Honor has always been treated as a special case Grayson, whose grading on a political and religious curve was never accepted for Graysons proper.

She's a special case but also a precedent and a wedge. That's the point of Benjamin Mayhew giving her a steading. If a niche or an activity is something Honor Harrington can fill or perform well and honorably, it's a door open to Grayson-born women as well.

Maybe, just maybe, opposition Steadholders could try condemning Abigail Hearns in case she enters into that honorable estate with some worthy man born off Grayson. And maybe Steadholder Owens would rather do without some political fights. But if a political enemy is going to go for an attack that will make him look crass, narrow and stupid, that's a kind of attack that will go so badly for that enemy that I'd welcome it. And beyond that, Steadholder Owens loves his daughter and isn't going to tell her not to marry a man she loves because some jerk with a key is going to be a jerk about it. Fair warning so it's not a surprise to him is about all I can see him asking.
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:10 pm

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The POV of Lieutenant Courvosier as astrogator could be interesting.

I bet he could microjump a cruiser straight out of the RZ into the boat bay of a dreadnaught, and make it fit on an Old Earth dime.

:lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:13 pm

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Unless I misremember, Honor was to Hamish and Emily married BEFORE Raoul was born. That, amoung other things, eliminates barstady and there is DNA testing that would confirm (in hasn't already been done) the parents.
Of course, someone could raise a stink about the sex-before-marriage but it seems to me that the Church just might have the birth/baptismal records for a LOT of children born between Steadholders who were married before the birth of any given child in question but for whom the child would appear (based on marriage and birth dates) to have been conceived prior to marriage. Simple addition :).

Seems to me that anyone who wanted to push that particular broken starship out of orbit had best be ready to have thier own "qualifications based on legitimacy of birth" questioned and then be ready to give up the position of Stedholder when documenation is provided.
So your 6th great grandparents got married when the nanny got pregnant and had the 1st surviving male heir of your 6th GGF- I guess you need to step down to current living heir of the 6th GGF's 2nd son? My, how that comes back to bite you in the ass when you have things that you would rather not be public knowledge?
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:52 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:I would be surprised if Steadholders haven't a law to marry Graysons and not foreigners (Masada sod). Much like the Manticoran Aristocracy has a law that commoners must be taken as spouses.
(snip)


Incidentally, marriage to a commoner isn't a requirement among the Manticoran aristocracy. It's solely a requirement for the heir to the throne - specifically to tie the throne to the commons and not the inbred aristocracy.
Depending on the exact wording that constitutional requirement mightalso apply if the current Manticoran monarch was to marry.

But you're correct that it doesn't apply to their aristocracy at large (or their heirs).
(RFC confirmed that it doesn't even apply to the heir secondary; to the throne; much less people further down the chain of succession. Oh and that marriages that predate becoming the heir to the throne are 'grandfathered in')
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:33 am

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George J. Smith wrote:
Dauntless wrote:as far as i can remember, benjamin mayhew's brother mathew isn't married, he's had a massive exposure to honour and manticore so is unlikely to thinking old style wife.

plus you just know some of the more annoying members of the keys will kick off if a steadholder's daughter tries to marry an off worlder, even one with grayson citizen ship via the protector's own.



I can't remember, was he young enough to get prolong?

roseandheather wrote:So far as I can remember, yes, he was.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to weep myself sick over the fact that Benjamin wasn't.

My dear Rosie, you just touched on one of my major nagging fears in the series. What of Benjamin being bereft of prolong? How old is he now and how much longer can we expect him to survive naturally?

Will the Mayhew Restoration survive his death; Will the alliance with Manticore survive his death; Who will survive him as Protector; Will Honor remain Protector's Champion; Will there be a negative power shift within the Keys? It seems the anti-Keys *shrug* would surely use his death to regain the reigns lost when Honor Harrington provided the way for Benjamin to seize his current level of control and authority in the first place.

It is still very early in the timeline of the Mayhew Restoration vs. the history of the planet at large and his Restoration will still be a virtual infant at his unprolonged death.

I see:
Foreign objects in the road ahead.
Low clearance.
Caution Ahead.
Bridge Incomplete.
Timeline Untimely Interrupted.
Lack of Prolong Ahead In Head.
Brace for Impact.
Lost Key Ahead.


All types of warning signs.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Point of View: Wishes and Likes
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:31 am

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cthia wrote:My dear Rosie, you just touched on one of my major nagging fears in the series. What of Benjamin being bereft of prolong? How old is he now and how much longer can we expect him to survive naturally?
Born December 21st, 1871, so 51 in most of 1922. We can expect 20-40 more years for him, with excellent health care and no unnatural surprises.

Bernard Raoul was born in '13 or '14, so he is likely to be around 30 at the earliest natural time of death for his father. We're unlikely to see a regency period unless Benjamin dies relatively early.

We can expect Protector Bernard to have experienced mentors and advisers, and the people who came of age since the Restoration to have two and three centuries to live, without a whole lot of tolerance for dinosaurs.
Will the Mayhew Restoration survive his death; Will the alliance with Manticore survive his death; Who will survive him as Protector; Will Honor remain Protector's Champion; Will there be a negative power shift within the Keys? It seems the anti-Keys *shrug* would surely use his death to regain the reigns lost when Honor Harrington provided the way for Benjamin to seize his current level of control and authority in the first place.
I wouldn't call them anti-Keys - more super-Keys, or ultra-Keys: Steadholders out to shift power back into the hands of Steadholders instead of the Sword or the Steaders.

But yeah, I'm not worried about them. The old guard is getting old as fast as Benjamin or faster. The ones young enough for prolong aren't often going to be real conservatives that way, and to the extent they are, their own power base is growing old as well.
It is still very early in the timeline of the Mayhew Restoration vs. the history of the planet at large and his Restoration will still be a virtual infant at his unprolonged death.

I see:
Foreign objects in the road ahead.
Low clearance.
Caution Ahead.
Bridge Incomplete.
Timeline Untimely Interrupted.
Lack of Prolong Ahead In Head.
Brace for Impact.
Lost Key Ahead.


All types of warning signs.

Pfft. The Mayhew Restoration itself is a restoration, a return to a traditional way of things. The periods of Key-dominance are the aberrations - not terribly uncommon ones, and often long by the standards of a pre-prolong Grayson lifetime, but not on the scale of Grayson's history. The Keys have suffered multiple embarrassments, the Sword is very popular, prolong is weighing demographics in favor of the Restoration.

It's a personal tragedy that, like Moses, Benjamin Mayhew will have led his people through suffering and struggle to a promised land he will live only long enough to glimpse. But I wouldn't doubt the security of the Restoration itself, if Grayson itself survives. And it does have a good track record that way.
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