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Human Treecat Names

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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:18 pm

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cthia wrote:I dunno. But I can't imagine Grayson Armsmen laying down their pulsars even on Solly soil.


It's up to their principal to make a decision. If checking the weapons is required for this person to be admitted wherever he or she is going, then they can choose to abide by the regulation or not go. Simple as that.
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:13 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I dunno. But I can't imagine Grayson Armsmen laying down their pulsars even on Solly soil.


It's up to their principal to make a decision. If checking the weapons is required for this person to be admitted wherever he or she is going, then they can choose to abide by the regulation or not go. Simple as that.

Though since steadholders are heads of state in their own right there would probably be a fair bit of diplomatic negotiation around their trips -- and certainly their visits to areas with restrictions on their armsmen bodyguards.

So their principal really seems to have (at least) 4 options:
* Have them abide by the regulations.
* Have them try to evade the regulations (sneak in concealed weapons)
* Negotiate permission for armed bodyguards; despite the normal restrictions.
* Don't go

And all that is probably worked out well before they show up. (If nothing else their armsmen would be looking at and trying to address weapons restrictions along with everything else that's part of their advanced planning. If they show up and get surprised by the requirement to be unarmed then they've already screwed up. That'd be like the President showing up with the secret service and someone unexpectedly ordering them to leave all their guns - coordination between the security forces to establish what the rules are and how they'd work together to maintain security should have happened way before the principle and their close guards actually show up)
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:17 pm

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cthia wrote:I dunno. But I can't imagine Grayson Armsmen laying down their pulsars even on Solly soil.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's up to their principal to make a decision. If checking the weapons is required for this person to be admitted wherever he or she is going, then they can choose to abide by the regulation or not go. Simple as that.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though since steadholders are heads of state in their own right there would probably be a fair bit of diplomatic negotiation around their trips -- and certainly their visits to areas with restrictions on their armsmen bodyguards.

So their principal really seems to have (at least) 4 options:
* Have them abide by the regulations.
* Have them try to evade the regulations (sneak in concealed weapons)
* Negotiate permission for armed bodyguards; despite the normal restrictions.
* Don't go

And all that is probably worked out well before they show up. (If nothing else their armsmen would be looking at and trying to address weapons restrictions along with everything else that's part of their advanced planning. If they show up and get surprised by the requirement to be unarmed then they've already screwed up. That'd be like the President showing up with the secret service and someone unexpectedly ordering them to leave all their guns - coordination between the security forces to establish what the rules are and how they'd work together to maintain security should have happened way before the principle and their close guards actually show up)

Case in point; chapter 51 in War of Honor:
The fregatten kapitän escorting Honor from the superdreadnought Campenhausen's boat bay was perfectly courteous, but he clearly had his reservations about this entire business. The fact that the holsters of her three accompanying armsmen were conspicuously empty had apparently reconciled him somewhat, but from the look he'd given Nimitz, the 'cat's reputation had preceded him. Apparently the fregatten kapitän wasn't any too certain that he shouldn't have been considered as much a weapon as the armsmen's pulsers. On the other hand, he obviously wasn't prepared to argue the point on his own authority.

Note that Honor then disarmed her own hidden pulser.
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:05 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I dunno. But I can't imagine Grayson Armsmen laying down their pulsars even on Solly soil.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's up to their principal to make a decision. If checking the weapons is required for this person to be admitted wherever he or she is going, then they can choose to abide by the regulation or not go. Simple as that.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though since steadholders are heads of state in their own right there would probably be a fair bit of diplomatic negotiation around their trips -- and certainly their visits to areas with restrictions on their armsmen bodyguards.

So their principal really seems to have (at least) 4 options:
* Have them abide by the regulations.
* Have them try to evade the regulations (sneak in concealed weapons)
* Negotiate permission for armed bodyguards; despite the normal restrictions.
* Don't go

And all that is probably worked out well before they show up. (If nothing else their armsmen would be looking at and trying to address weapons restrictions along with everything else that's part of their advanced planning. If they show up and get surprised by the requirement to be unarmed then they've already screwed up. That'd be like the President showing up with the secret service and someone unexpectedly ordering them to leave all their guns - coordination between the security forces to establish what the rules are and how they'd work together to maintain security should have happened way before the principle and their close guards actually show up)

Case in point; chapter 51 in War of Honor:
The fregatten kapitän escorting Honor from the superdreadnought Campenhausen's boat bay was perfectly courteous, but he clearly had his reservations about this entire business. The fact that the holsters of her three accompanying armsmen were conspicuously empty had apparently reconciled him somewhat, but from the look he'd given Nimitz, the 'cat's reputation had preceded him. Apparently the fregatten kapitän wasn't any too certain that he shouldn't have been considered as much a weapon as the armsmen's pulsers. On the other hand, he obviously wasn't prepared to argue the point on his own authority.

Note that Honor then disarmed her own hidden pulser.

All of you are absolutely correct about that particular point, and tlb, I too specifically recalled that scene in Andermani space when I read everyone's reply.

But I didn't make things clear enough. Prearranged confrontations would be handled diplomatically, yes. But! Shit happens! If Honor ended up having to go groundside because something popped off unexpectedly, like her unscheduled unplanned trip to the planet in the Endicott system, the Armsmen are sure to follow. And if they happen upon the planet's police force in the middle of a melee, I'm none too certain.

I am none too certain the cats would shed their pulsers either if their spider senses were tingling. Or if the hair was standing up on their spine.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:23 pm

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cthia wrote:All of you are absolutely correct about that particular point, and tlb, I too specifically recalled that scene in Andermani space when I read everyone's reply.

But I didn't make things clear enough. Prearranged confrontations would be handled diplomatically, yes. But! Shit happens! If Honor ended up having to go groundside because something popped off unexpectedly, like her unscheduled unplanned trip to the planet in the Endicott system, the Armsmen are sure to follow. And if they happen upon the planet's police force in the middle of a melee, I'm none too certain.

I am none too certain the cats would shed their pulsers either if their spider senses were tingling. Or if the hair was standing up on their spine.

I think instead she would be insane to go down to Masada in the Endicott System. But you are talking extreme cases where Manticore has military dominance. Any world which was not at war with Manticore or the Grand Alliance would have to be handled diplomatically FIRST, before anyone appeared armed and a gunfight ensued. Otherwise it is a major diplomatic incident that could escalate.

As for the cats, as you have said previously; they would have no qualms in giving up their pulsers, because they have supreme confidence in the natural defenses.

But what started this was your comment about tree-cats being spies. You particularly suggested a memory singer; which would be a waste of their talents, since nothing about being a memory singer makes the cat more capable as a spy. A memory singer specializes in passing information from one cat to a group of cats. So instead it would be a scout that spied and then reported back to a memory singer perhaps. Now tree cats can tell if some is lying (or not), but might not be a major part of what a spy does; I suspect there is not a big call for filling out questionaires. Also despite the James Bond movies, spies are not normally armed; since that is a give away that they are not a ordinary person. Harahap was a very successful agent because he was ordinary and could blend in; that will now be no longer be true, since he has a tree cat companion.
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:40 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:All of you are absolutely correct about that particular point, and tlb, I too specifically recalled that scene in Andermani space when I read everyone's reply.

But I didn't make things clear enough. Prearranged confrontations would be handled diplomatically, yes. But! Shit happens! If Honor ended up having to go groundside because something popped off unexpectedly, like her unscheduled unplanned trip to the planet in the Endicott system, the Armsmen are sure to follow. And if they happen upon the planet's police force in the middle of a melee, I'm none too certain.

I am none too certain the cats would shed their pulsers either if their spider senses were tingling. Or if the hair was standing up on their spine.

I think instead she would be insane to go down to Masada in the Endicott System. But you are talking extreme cases where Manticore has military dominance. Any world which was not at war with Manticore or the Grand Alliance would have to be handled diplomatically FIRST, before anyone appeared armed and a gunfight ensued. Otherwise it is a major diplomatic incident that could escalate.

As for the cats, as you have said previously; they would have no qualms in giving up their pulsers, because they have supreme confidence in the natural defenses.

But what started this was your comment about tree-cats being spies. You particularly suggested a memory singer; which would be a waste of their talents, since nothing about being a memory singer makes the cat more capable as a spy. A memory singer specializes in passing information from one cat to a group of cats. So instead it would be a scout that spied and then reported back to a memory singer perhaps. Now tree cats can tell if some is lying (or not), but might not be a major part of what a spy does; I suspect there is not a big call for filling out questionaires. Also despite the James Bond movies, spies are not normally armed; since that is a give away that they are not a ordinary person. Harahap was a very successful agent because he was ordinary and could blend in; that will now be no longer be true, since he has a tree cat companion.

Doh! I meant the Yeltsin System, Blackbird base. Apology.

A career choice cannot tactfully be considered as a waste of someone's talents. If a citizen of the MBS chooses a certain profession for him or her self, then it has to be honored. Especially if said person is good at it.

I disagree, I think total memory recall is an excellent set of skills for a spy. Mingling with people all over the galaxy and hearing conversations and never forgetting a single detail? Think Carrie Wells on the hit TV series Unforgettable. She plays a police detective who has a rare ability to remember everything she sees and hears. And she solves crimes that are next to impossible. A Treecat would add to that his ability as a lie detector. Carry Wells would be totally unstoppable, even moreso than she is now.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:53 pm

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cthia wrote:Doh! I meant the Yeltsin System, Blackbird base. Apology.


You mean the system where Grayson law applies? There's not a single person in that system that would tell a Steadholder Guard to disarm. They'd know that it would be a useless waste of breath.

Either they tell the Steadholder in question or they don't. The Steadholder will decide. And since this is the Yeltsin system, the Steadholder would supposedly already know the security requirements of the facility they're visiting. If there's a confrontation, it's because the Steadholder is deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The Guardsmen are also well-known for their discipline throughout that system. If the Steadholder told them not to do anything stupid, they wouldn't. So if the Steadholder is to be allowed aboard a secure installation, that means the Steadholder him or herself is a trusted person.

And specifically in the case of Honor, is there ANY facility manager that would argue with her? And on the subject of her Guard, who is routinely allowed in the presence of Protector Benjamin Mayhew and Empress Elizabeth? What possible reason would a facility manager have to argue with her?

I'm sorry, this is an even more unlikely example than Honor having to land unexpectedly on Masada.

I disagree, I think total memory recall is an excellent set of skills for a spy. Mingling with people all over the galaxy and hearing conversations and never forgetting a single detail? Think Carrie Wells on the hit TV series Unforgettable. She plays a police detective who has a rare ability to remember everything she sees and hears. And she solves crimes that are next to impossible. A Treecat would add to that his ability as a lie detector. Carry Wells would be totally unstoppable, even moreso than she is now.


I agree with the first part of your paragraph, but that can be solved technologically and make the spy inconspicuous.

A treecat is going to stand out anywhere, except in the forests of Sphinx. That's not a good trait for a spy.
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:18 pm

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cthia wrote:I disagree, I think total memory recall is an excellent set of skills for a spy. Mingling with people all over the galaxy and hearing conversations and never forgetting a single detail? Think Carrie Wells on the hit TV series Unforgettable. She plays a police detective who has a rare ability to remember everything she sees and hears. And she solves crimes that are next to impossible. A Treecat would add to that his ability as a lie detector. Carry Wells would be totally unstoppable, even moreso than she is now.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I agree with the first part of your paragraph, but that can be solved technologically and make the spy inconspicuous.

A treecat is going to stand out anywhere, except in the forests of Sphinx. That's not a good trait for a spy.

If we are going to talk total recall, there is also a series of books by David Baldacci about a character called Amos Decker or Memory Man, the title of the first book. He starts out as a policeman and then joins the FBI and is not a happy person at all, because his memory is a curse. Fiction is not a good source to judge what would be a good characteristic to have.
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:49 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Doh! I meant the Yeltsin System, Blackbird base. Apology.


You mean the system where Grayson law applies? There's not a single person in that system that would tell a Steadholder Guard to disarm. They'd know that it would be a useless waste of breath.

Either they tell the Steadholder in question or they don't. The Steadholder will decide. And since this is the Yeltsin system, the Steadholder would supposedly already know the security requirements of the facility they're visiting. If there's a confrontation, it's because the Steadholder is deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The Guardsmen are also well-known for their discipline throughout that system. If the Steadholder told them not to do anything stupid, they wouldn't. So if the Steadholder is to be allowed aboard a secure installation, that means the Steadholder him or herself is a trusted person.

And specifically in the case of Honor, is there ANY facility manager that would argue with her? And on the subject of her Guard, who is routinely allowed in the presence of Protector Benjamin Mayhew and Empress Elizabeth? What possible reason would a facility manager have to argue with her?

I'm sorry, this is an even more unlikely example than Honor having to land unexpectedly on Masada.

Go back and read my post. I only cited the Yeltsin system as an example of Murphy and the law of unintended consequences causing the Steadholder to land on the planet impromptu and without prior negotiations with the system for special consideration for the Armsmen.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I disagree, I think total memory recall is an excellent set of skills for a spy. Mingling with people all over the galaxy and hearing conversations and never forgetting a single detail? Think Carrie Wells on the hit TV series Unforgettable. She plays a police detective who has a rare ability to remember everything she sees and hears. And she solves crimes that are next to impossible. A Treecat would add to that his ability as a lie detector. Carry Wells would be totally unstoppable, even moreso than she is now.


I agree with the first part of your paragraph, but that can be solved technologically and make the spy inconspicuous.

A treecat is going to stand out anywhere, except in the forests of Sphinx. That's not a good trait for a spy.

Of course a cat will stand out. That is my point. Hiding in plain sight. It is the perfect cover. The two-leg has no ties to the navy or the government, but the cat does. However, the entire galaxy is completely oblivious to the intelligence and other abilities of a cat. Why can't the two-leg operate as an eccentric tourist who is showing his beloved treecat the galaxy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Human Treecat Names
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:08 pm

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cthia wrote:Of course a cat will stand out. That is my point. Hiding in plain sight. It is the perfect cover. The two-leg has no ties to the navy or the government, but the cat does. However, the entire galaxy is completely oblivious to the intelligence and other abilities of a cat. Why can't the two-leg operate as an eccentric tourist who is showing his beloved treecat the galaxy.


You're kind of describing Harahap and Fire Watch.

Except that treecats' capabilities precede them and often are overblown. We saw that in TEiF, when Fire Watch had to stand outside the field of view of a door camera, so the suspects inside would open it in the first place. Once Harahap, Fire Watch, and Indy got entry, they played on the suspects' incorrect assumption that treecats could read minds.

That is to say, a treecat is not going to be mistaken for a simple pet by most interesting subjects of a spy. They're going to be wary. A treecat riding the shoulders of an inexperienced two-leg is not going to yield useful results.

What you need is a good pair, like Harahap and Fire Watch are.
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