Henke — to do, or not to do.

cthia wrote:An advantage in missile range? Okay, what memo did I miss?

Ajax was loaded with Mk16 Dual Drive missiles and opposed by RHN all-up MDMs.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:An advantage in missile range? Okay, what memo did I miss?

Ajax was loaded with Mk16 Dual Drive missiles and opposed by RHN all-up MDMs.

That's one of those plot device decisions... David has explained the complicated reasoning that was supposed to be behind it, but it still doesn't make any sense to most of us.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:An advantage in missile range? Okay, what memo did I miss?

Ajax was loaded with Mk16 Dual Drive missiles and opposed by RHN all-up MDMs.

kzt wrote:That's one of those plot device decisions... David has explained the complicated reasoning that was supposed to be behind it, but it still doesn't make any sense to most of us.

Thanks to you both. Thought I was losing my phu***** mind.

Is that explanation in the Pearls?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4892

There's nothing convoluted about David's reasoning. They loaded the BC(P)s because they expected to run into other battlecruisers and battleships. They did not expect to run into any modern wallers.

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Ajax was loaded with Mk16 Dual Drive missiles and opposed by RHN all-up MDMs.

kzt wrote:That's one of those plot device decisions... David has explained the complicated reasoning that was supposed to be behind it, but it still doesn't make any sense to most of us.

Thanks to you both. Thought I was losing my phu***** mind.

Is that explanation in the Pearls?

The Mk16 loadout is from textev.

"Admiral Redmont and I have already met, Mr. Secretary," Michelle told him.

"So I understand." Theisman smiled thinly. "On the other hand, a little more time has passed since then, and Admiral Redmont and I have had the opportunity to . . . discuss his actions at Solon."

"Sir, Admiral Redmont didn't—"

"I didn't say I didn't understand what happened, Admiral," Theisman told her. "And, if we're going to be honest, I might very well have reacted the same way if I'd thought you'd deliberately waited to abandon ship until you knew I'd sailed into your ambush. But if we're going to keep a handle on atrocities and counter-atrocities, then anytime something like this comes along, it needs to be addressed squarely. I don't doubt that Admiral Redmont acted correctly after he'd picked up your surviving people. And I don't doubt that the two of you handled yourselves with proper professional courtesy. I hope, however, that you'll accept my invitation and give all of us an opportunity to discuss the incident and our reactions to it in a less . . . charged atmosphere, shall we say?"

"Very well, Mr. Secretary," Michelle said. "Of course I'll accept your invitation."

"So I understand." Theisman smiled thinly. "On the other hand, a little more time has passed since then, and Admiral Redmont and I have had the opportunity to . . . discuss his actions at Solon."

I absorb this as Theisman saying that not only has enough time passed that he and Redmont had time to chat but enough time had passed for Redmont to have simmered. It implies a marked difficulty in Redmont's resolving his issues with the confrontation. Issues which go beyond what an admiral would naturally feel losing ships and crew. It is what I infer anyways.

Which implies to me that Redmont may be having a certain "peculiar" problem with Henke's tactic. He doesn't strike me as a sore loser, even in the face of an atrocious battle in which he was "honorably" defeated. I think Redmont can't believe anyone, least a Manty would make that call.

Again, I sure wish textev had given a few several passages regarding that conversation between he and Theisman.

"Sir, Admiral Redmont didn't—"

Anyone care to speculate on what Henke was going to say before Theisman interrupted her?

****** *

Yes, it is clear that Redmont was bothered. But that text also makes it clear that Henke did nothing wrong. Not the section (emphasis added):

And, if we're going to be honest, I might very well have reacted the same way if I'd thought you'd deliberately waited to abandon ship until you knew I'd sailed into your ambush.

The implication is that deliberately waiting to abandon ship would have been bad form, but that is not what happened. What Henke did was not wrong. And Theisman knows it. He's essentially telling Henke it's all right.

By the way, I think you've missed the fact that the missile pods were launched well before the boat bay was cleared. The plan had already gone into effect.

Cthia,

I can understand your feelings about morality here and appreciate what I hear you saying.

But...

The morality of the situation is far more complex than I hear you recognizing. There are any number of ways approaching this, but let's start with the broader picture. The context of the raids 8th fleet is making is that the RMN is acting out of weakness, hoping to distract Haven from concentrating its forces for a killing blow. Had Haven pulled Beatrice out of the hat at that particular time, that would probably been it for Manticore. Their backs were that thoroughly against the wall.

Now consider Ajax. IIRC, Ajax is a pod laying BC, representing the very best tech Manticore had to that point deployed. No way can that ship with its advanced tech be allowed to fall into enemy hands. Manticore's long term hope of survival rested with the tech that ship represented. Should its security systems be compromised allowing it to be reverse engineered, the lives of thousands of RMN personnel could be at stake and Manticore could have gone down. As it actually happened, only the partial deployment of Apollo prevented Manticore from being forced to surrender at the first battle of Manticore.

From here let's think about Manticore's perception of Haven. We the readers know that Haven is after a treaty that gets Manticore out of its conquered systems. But for all Manticore understands, what Haven wants is to conquer Manticore and get a hold of the junction. The only real exception to this is Honor and no one is finding her persuasive at this point. As far as everyone else is concerned, Haven is just the Peeps with no distinction being made between the Legislaturists, the Committee, and the Republic.

So here Mike Henke sits. For the reasons listed above, surrender is not an option. And her perception of Haven is closer to the majority view than Honor's. So what is she to do? There are really only two choices. She can either fight or scuttle the ship. She still has weapons to fight and that is the choice she makes, knowing that even though she can still inflict damage on the enemy, Ajax will be destroyed. And while there would have been no penalty from her superiors had she chosen otherwise, Mike Henke was doing her duty as she understood it. In fact at the time the decision was made, Mike believed that she would die. It was only at the very last minute that the boat bay was cleared and her flag captain ordered her off the ship.

Was her decision right? At very best, the choice would have to be ambigious no matter how she called it. But that is called "fog of war" in which the rules are usually murky at best. Whatever else war might be, it is not chess where tipping over the king and a polite bow ends the contest.

What actually happened is known as a ruse. Ruses have been a part of war as long as there has been warfare. Ajax was shedding pods, yes. But she had not struck her wedge or communicated a desire to surrender. That meant that she was still a hostile. Given that, the RHN admiral should have either stayed out of her missile envelop to see what happened or fired on her. That was his responsibility instead of stepping into it the way he did.

I've been an avid reader of the Safehold series. On one occasion in a conversation with Cayleb, Merlin points out that any worthy commander of his troops is looking for ways of shooting the enemy in the back if possible. It doesn't sound very honorable, does it? But it is true. Any commander's first responsibility is to his/her oath which in Mike's case is to the queen, which is to defend Manticore against her enemies. Secondly, it is to the people under his/her command to spend as few of their lives as possible and if the situation is such that those lives must be spent that it be done in such a manner that those lives have as much meaning as possible. That is precisely what I see Mike Henke doing.

Don

Hi Don,

Kudos for explaining it so patiently and well.

Given how well this snafu or Cthia's conundrum is laid out, I've wondered if RFC hadn't considered it for HH once upon a time somehow, possibly to tarnish her reputation, perhaps even in her own mind; to get people to realise just how confusing war can be.

It bothers me that Cthia keeps ignoring the accidental nature or coincidence of the whole series of decisions and events; none of which of themselves I think Cthia could argue were wrong when whoever especially Mike made them in isolation, yet Cthia's continued and almost preferred state of apparent confusion, particularly blaming Mike for all the deadly results, seems petty and almost petulant to me.

Isn't it time to move on?

L

n7axw wrote:Cthia,

I can understand your feelings about morality here and appreciate what I hear you saying.

But...

The morality of the situation is far more complex than I hear you recognizing. There are any number of ways approaching this, but let's start with the broader picture. The context of the raids 8th fleet is making is that the RMN is acting out of weakness, hoping to distract Haven from concentrating its forces for a killing blow. Had Haven pulled Beatrice out of the hat at that particular time, that would probably been it for Manticore. Their backs were that thoroughly against the wall.

Now consider Ajax. IIRC, Ajax is a pod laying BC, representing the very best tech Manticore had to that point deployed. No way can that ship with its advanced tech be allowed to fall into enemy hands. Manticore's long term hope of survival rested with the tech that ship represented. Should its security systems be compromised allowing it to be reverse engineered, the lives of thousands of RMN personnel could be at stake and Manticore could have gone down. As it actually happened, only the partial deployment of Apollo prevented Manticore from being forced to surrender at the first battle of Manticore.

From here let's think about Manticore's perception of Haven. We the readers know that Haven is after a treaty that gets Manticore out of its conquered systems. But for all Manticore understands, what Haven wants is to conquer Manticore and get a hold of the junction. The only real exception to this is Honor and no one is finding her persuasive at this point. As far as everyone else is concerned, Haven is just the Peeps with no distinction being made between the Legislaturists, the Committee, and the Republic.

So here Mike Henke sits. For the reasons listed above, surrender is not an option. And her perception of Haven is closer to the majority view than Honor's. So what is she to do? There are really only two choices. She can either fight or scuttle the ship. She still has weapons to fight and that is the choice she makes, knowing that even though she can still inflict damage on the enemy, Ajax will be destroyed. And while there would have been no penalty from her superiors had she chosen otherwise, Mike Henke was doing her duty as she understood it. In fact at the time the decision was made, Mike believed that she would die. It was only at the very last minute that the boat bay was cleared and her flag captain ordered her off the ship.

Was her decision right? At very best, the choice would have to be ambigious no matter how she called it. But that is called "fog of war" in which the rules are usually murky at best. Whatever else war might be, it is not chess where tipping over the king and a polite bow ends the contest.

What actually happened is known as a ruse. Ruses have been a part of war as long as there has been warfare. Ajax was shedding pods, yes. But she had not struck her wedge or communicated a desire to surrender. That meant that she was still a hostile. Given that, the RHN admiral should have either stayed out of her missile envelop to see what happened or fired on her. That was his responsibility instead of stepping into it the way he did.

I've been an avid reader of the Safehold series. On one occasion in a conversation with Cayleb, Merlin points out that any worthy commander of his troops is looking for ways of shooting the enemy in the back if possible. It doesn't sound very honorable, does it? But it is true. Any commander's first responsibility is to his/her oath which in Mike's case is to the queen, which is to defend Manticore against her enemies. Secondly, it is to the people under his/her command to spend as few of their lives as possible and if the situation is such that those lives must be spent that it be done in such a manner that those lives have as much meaning as possible. That is precisely what I see Mike Henke doing.

Don

lyonheart wrote:
Hi Don,

Kudos for explaining it so patiently and well.

Given how well this snafu or Cthia's conundrum is laid out, I've wondered if RFC hadn't considered it for HH once upon a time somehow, possibly to tarnish her reputation, perhaps even in her own mind; to get people to realise just how confusing war can be.

It bothers me that Cthia keeps ignoring the accidental nature or coincidence of the whole series of decisions and events; none of which of themselves I think Cthia could argue were wrong when whoever especially Mike made them in isolation, yet Cthia's continued and almost preferred state of apparent confusion, particularly blaming Mike for all the deadly results, seems petty and almost petulant to me.

Isn't it time to move on?

L.

Try as I may, I cannot wring any gray matter out of the forum. Can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. Is there not one of you who likes a good formal book discussion? Is there not one of you willing to bring those skills to bear ... into the forum ... without hurtling sophomoric spittles of condescension? ...

Kudos for explaining it so patiently and well.

Petty. Petulant.

These are what I get hurled back at me for decently asking ...

Can we talk?

If one's answer to the very first question is no then one's response as lips are sealed would have been a more appropriate ... and decent, response.

What the hell. You can't teach morals, scruples and values. Even when you painstakingly lay it all out.

Every time I fail to glance at the forum early morning I'm inundated with emails of disgust from friends. THIS TIME MY NIECE LEADS THE PACK. I could say that she is more than a bit angry but that'd be a damn lie. SHE IS PISSED. L-I-V-I-D-!

12 yr-old Tierney wrote:
<snip>
I can't believe I wanted to join that forum. I'd be better off sitting in the forest amongst a forum of trees. I'd get a better conversation from tree bark. If no one is there, does a tree make a sound in the forest when it's falling? No it doesn't. What's the point? All of the other trees know it's falling, even a pine knows there's no need for ... redumbduncesee? Maybe they're all just tree stumped.

I'm afraid she's correct. The forum lost her, way back during the Mueller School dome collapse discussion ... which was a bust as well.

Time after time I've called on decency within this forum. Time after time to no avail. Time after time I've tried to recruit friends from Europe. Time after time proof was given them of a need to proceed with caution because of American behaviour. Initially, the plan was for all to attend Honor Con 2014, where several of them could also meet my niece for professional discussions afterwards, and our family's powow begins on Nov. 2, where my friends also demand to attend. It's going to be a weeks vacation for them. I am picking up the entire tab - that was the plan. Honor Con is being hosted in the same town pretty much where my niece lives. I have been throwing that hint out forever. I had been willing to roll out the red carpet. No one got it. Too busy forming silly little cliques and acting like sophomores. Actually, I know high school freshmen capable of more. Much more.

If you aren't capable of good, decent conversation within a forum, then what motivation do you think one has to meet and discuss anything with you in person at a social event? And with such wanton lack of manners.

Regarding that "well laid out" post. Discussion has been raving amongst my friends. Good laughter. Serious discussion. My brother, who works with the phone company lent us a little of his "voodoo" and we managed to deploy three different conversations, each an 11-way. Totally insane, totally fun. Raged on for hours. On separate days, into the night, EST. All about that post. Which made me miss this post from lack of sleep and impending professional duties.

FYI, I have been relieved of my disappointment towards Henke. Sabila (Romanian) emailed the appropriate passage (for consideration) to "us" that we missed. That did me good. Everyone drew a sigh of relief after considering that particular passage. No one more so than I. I like Henke. I didn't want her to disappoint me. I didn't want her to go out and disappoint Honor - who believed in her, (although Henke didn't believe in herself.) So I brought my concerns to the forum, in hopes, thinking, that there could be calm found in Gilead, with the help of decent forumites. Not a single person supplied the appropriate passage to support Henke, the passage definitively pointing out not only its accidental nature, but the fact that survival was at hand. Has not a single one of you ever been to a formal book discussion? Why is there so much disrespectful American arrogance?

Given how well this snafu or Cthia's conundrum is laid out ...

Yes, Cthia "took time" to lay it out. Cthia thought the effort would be appreciated. Silly Cthia.

I've seen posters disrespected because they didn't take more time to proofread their post. Well, so much for that misnomer of an excuse.

And yes, it was a conundrum of Cthia's. I blame Cthia for thinking he could bring the problem to kids and get decent help. Silly ... silly Cthia, only tricks are for kids.

No, it isn't time to move on. The cart is still moving in my social circles. (If it is time to move on within this thread, so be it.) Good conversation can't be found amongst treebark, but the conversation is still raging in my neck of the woods ...

"Brilliant (Cthia)" (substitute my real name.) "Kobayashi Maru? What a light to shed on that. Genius. Can we talk tonite. Andreea says she has an option to add to Henke's decision. Laters! -Natalja

"Kobayashi Maru. Bone me a bagel, I'll pull up a seat. Michaela says hello." -Dvitova

"Good one Uncle. My friends are acting like its a party. Everyone wants in on this. What do I say to them all? You're going to have to discuss this with your sister. I am not going to miss this! So ring her immediately!! Do it now!!! Uncle #### said he can initiate those insane phone parties again! -Tieney

These are a few of the email responses I got after posting.

As it stands there are 33 confirmed people that will visit during Honor Con. Since the date had already been set. We will continue our petty and petulant discussions amongst ourselves. I have no doubt which I want to attend. And since they want no part of the attitudes and lack of common decency of "some" in the forums, I will no longer seek them to join. I'm embarrassed that I ever tried. And I certainly will not force a formal meeting on them - of the horrors of stale, stagnant and indecent conversation completely devoid of morals, scruples, values and substance. We wouldn't want to sink our teeth into good conversation only to be told "it's time to move on."

I would never go in a thread and suggest such. Even if I don't like building ships that the author says won't fly. I respect anyone's need to build them anyways. Let's call it ... hmm ... morals, ethics, and common decency, sound good.

Although it's well laid out and ripe with talk of morals, ethics and values, some didn't learn a damn thing. You just can't teach it.


At my gathering there will be gifts - available leather bound editions of all books given to everyone, signed by all of us. Scholarships and many other prizes. And the most priceless, a generous serving of decency and good conversation.

Henke's lack of morals are no longer questioned. I apologize to Henke. Thanks to my friends. However, Henke's fairing on her Kobayashi Maru is turning out to be some of the best conversation I've had. Isn't it ironic this kind of discussion can't be found inside the Honorverse forum?!

Operator, would you help me make this call?

E.T. phoning home. STOP. STI is a bust. STOP. Prognosis: NONE FOUND. STOP.