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Constitutional Powers of Grayson

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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:07 pm

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Cthia, consider this: In the history of Grayson, there have been thousands of people who have made enormous contributions to the welfare of Grayson. But there have only been 76 new steadings created in the last thousand years.

Creating a new steading is not something one does simply as a reward for service to the planet. It is not like a modern British knighthood, or granting of an Order. It is a very momentous action, affecting the very governance of the planet and signifying the ability to expand into new territory. Making Honor into a Steadholder was one-time event. It served several purposes for Benjamin. It signified a bright new stage in the history of Grayson. He used it as a sign of Grayson's ascendance into the galactic community. He also used the opportunity to bring Honor into the governance of Grayson, both as a symbol and exemplar of the new society Grayson needed to become, and as an ally promoting those changes in the government itself.

The only reason he was able to pull it off was because of the enormous celebrity accorded to Honor at that moment in time. Even then, he would not have been able to do it if the Grayson population had not been ready to expand onto the southern continent in a new steading. While the elder Harrington's are honored, they simply do no have the celebrity status of Honor. Not even Benjamin himself does. The next steading to be created will be a big political tug of war, as I'm sure all previous steading creations have been.
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:26 pm

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SWM wrote:
Cthia, consider this: In the history of Grayson, there have been thousands of people who have made enormous contributions to the welfare of Grayson. But there have only been 76 new steadings created in the last thousand years.

Creating a new steading is not something one does simply as a reward for service to the planet. It is not like a modern British knighthood, or granting of an Order. It is a very momentous action, affecting the very governance of the planet and signifying the ability to expand into new territory. Making Honor into a Steadholder was one-time event. It served several purposes for Benjamin. It signified a bright new stage in the history of Grayson. He used it as a sign of Grayson's ascendance into the galactic community. He also used the opportunity to bring Honor into the governance of Grayson, both as a symbol and exemplar of the new society Grayson needed to become, and as an ally promoting those changes in the government itself.

The only reason he was able to pull it off was because of the enormous celebrity accorded to Honor at that moment in time. Even then, he would not have been able to do it if the Grayson population had not been ready to expand onto the southern continent in a new steading. While the elder Harrington's are honored, they simply do no have the celebrity status of Honor. Not even Benjamin himself does. The next steading to be created will be a big political tug of war, as I'm sure all previous steading creations have been.

Thanks for the post SWM, and I know you're right. Even Harold pointed out the "right of way."

But, a part of me considers "down the road" to a time when the Mayhew Restoration has brought to its bosom many foreigners who may become citizens. Not willing to give them a piece of the pie may invite rebellion. Wars. I'm not saying my thinking is right, yet it is how it "appears" to me. The Harrington Steading has opened the door. The precedent has been set.

My niece's take on it, is that Honor's parents should be assimilated, incorporated, into the existing Harrington Steading making it stronger.

I never considered that. Little 12 yr-old genius. :roll:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:33 pm

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I forgot to add another of my niece's sentiments. If Grayson denies the creation of any other steadings, then in the face of a future influx of foreigners, the need to expand into the Southern Hemisphere will take on an even more critical emphasis, and the Harrington Steading promises to swell to immense proportions.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:08 pm

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One of my main points was that new steadings are only created when there is a need for new steadings. I didn't say that no naturalized citizens would ever be named as steadholders in the future. What I said was that new steadholders would be named the way they always have been, with the exception of Honor. They will happen slowly, as needed, and presumably either after long political battles or as the result of splitting up an existing steading. Remember, the steadholders are an aristocracy, and mostly consist of interrelated families. Naturalized citizens have exactly the same "piece of the pie" that all the other Graysons have, outside of the steadholder families. None of those natural-born Graysons are able to become steadholders, either, unless something truly extraordinary happens.
Steadings are usually the result of splitting existing steadings, and the new steadholder usually comes from a steadholder family. Non-steadholders just don't become steadholders. Honor is one of the very few in a thousand years of Grayson history.
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:29 pm

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Part of the problem is probably understanding the mindset on Grayson. Grayson is not a democracy or republic. It isn't even like a European monarchy. I'm not sure there has ever been an equivalent in Earth history. It is a completely flat aristocracy--there is no hierarchy. Every new steadholder is equal to the others, and has no superior. It is a closed aristocracy; it is almost impossible for anyone not of the aristocracy to join it.

It is like a grand council of hereditary kings, deciding whether to create a new kingdom and who should be the king of it. There are no dukes or barons in these kingdoms, just this council of kings. And to the common people who live in these kingdoms, this is normal and expected. It is a very different mindset.
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by Hutch   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:12 pm

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Very well put, SWM.

cthia, remember that Protector Benjamin had his own motives for the Protector's Own--he wants them to settle in the existing steadings (albeit many will end up in Harrington Steading) to continue the evolution of Grayson...but never losing the importance of the Church or the Test.

I can see in the future these new steaders settling in, marrying 'native' Graysons, gaining influence over the decades and centuries, until one of their descendents becomes a Steadholder in their own right.

But even as fast as events are moving in Grayson in the past 30 years, some things are not going to change.

IMHO as always. YMMV.
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:48 pm

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SWM wrote:
Part of the problem is probably understanding the mindset on Grayson. Grayson is not a democracy or republic. It isn't even like a European monarchy. I'm not sure there has ever been an equivalent in Earth history. It is a completely flat aristocracy--there is no hierarchy. Every new steadholder is equal to the others, and has no superior. It is a closed aristocracy; it is almost impossible for anyone not of the aristocracy to join it.

It is like a grand council of hereditary kings, deciding whether to create a new kingdom and who should be the king of it. There are no dukes or barons in these kingdoms, just this council of kings. And to the common people who live in these kingdoms, this is normal and expected. It is a very different mindset.

Nice post. I do understand it a bit more.

However, and forgive me if I seem argumentative, it's not my intention, but the Mayhew Restoration almost ensures that there cannot be business as usual. IMO

Citizens, foreign citizens finding themselves on Grayson for whatever reasons — will only be welcome in the Harrington Steading. I see the Harrington Steading growing at an alarming rate. I see the Harrington Steading becoming the "America" within Grayson.

SWM wrote:
Steadings are usually the result of splitting existing steadings, and the new steadholder usually comes from a steadholder family.

The Harringtons are from a Steadholder's family. My point is that within the Harrington family are many new variables. The Harringtons have somewhat different status in that they are, by blood, a part of the Steadholder and even have a potential heir to the Harrington Steading.

I simply see possible problems manifesting itself regarding the Mayhew Restoration, as did the Keys I am sure.

I also foresee the Harrington Steading becoming one of the most financially secure steadings in the planet's history. Again, IMHO. If that happens, people may flock to the Harrington Steading for economic opportunities. Who wouldn't want to become part of an affluent steading where the mean average income is triple average and everyone is driving Ferrari aircars? Can other steading citizens opt out of a steading?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by Duckk   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:52 pm

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Citizens, foreign citizens finding themselves on Grayson for whatever reasons — will only be welcome in the Harrington Steading. I see the Harrington Steading growing at an alarming rate. I see the Harrington Steading becoming the "America" within Grayson.


Harrington Steading isn't the only place where non-Graysons are welcomed. Just like there are some reactionary, conservative steadholders and steadings, so too are there liberal, progressive steadholders. Indeed, there are probably as many if not more of the latter than the former, due to the size of Benjamin's power base.
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:16 pm

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SWM wrote:Cthia, consider this: In the history of Grayson, there have been thousands of people who have made enormous contributions to the welfare of Grayson. But there have only been 76 new steadings created in the last thousand years.

You certainly have a point there SWM, however, how many of those people obtained financial success greatly beyond a Steadholder? I don't know if great economic success would matter (although my intuition says it would) but it is difficult to accept that a citizen — that rises to the top of the financial universe, say like a Grayson Hauptman, could be denied the inevitable. The Mayhew Restoration will open up many profitable financial opportunities for the average steader — steaders that may become considerably more affluent and economically powerful than their Steadholders. Economic power yields political power. One thing I do know, is the power of money.

Let's take Adam Gerrick. Adam would have become quite rich in his own right. How can that sort of financial powerbase be denied? I simply don't think it will go as smoothly as many of you think it will. MO

Although your posts make very much sense, very logical. However, logic never rules planets or governments. I wish.

I simply see a point in time where the success of the Mayhew Restoration will outgrow Grayson's present laws and traditions.

What were the criteria of the original five founding Steadholders? Did it boil down to one of affluence?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Constitutional Powers of Grayson
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:45 pm

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There is a difference between influence and power. This is especially true of a hereditary aristocracy. There may very well eventually be very wealthy common citizens of Grayson who's personal Wealth could rival some Steadholders wealth but it won't rival a Steadholder's personal power. Steadholders hold high, middle and low justice within their own Steadings, not something wealth can get you unless you finance a whole Colony out of your own pocket.

Wealth gets you influence, a form of power, but it does not give you political powers itself. Any power your wealth would accrue would be a result of influencing someone with legislated power under the constitution.

At least that's my personal take. Separate influence and power in your thinking in looking at the Honorverse's various polities. Some are very like our own systems of governance, but others are serious throw backs to an earlier age. An example would be a comparison between Prichart's presidential powers, Elizabeth's Crown authority and the power of the Sword on Grayson. Much different animals all three.
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