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Reparations

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Re: Reparations
Post by BobfromSydney   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:08 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
Cirdan wrote:I think we need to differentiate here:

...

-Transtellars: Freed OFS client states probably have reasons to sue. Might well happen, and this could be disastrous for involved transtellars, but I don't think we'll hear too much of this, since David Weber isn't exactly known for court dramas ;) Well, there was the sword duel thing on Grayson, but I don't thing trials against giant corporations would go that way :D


Where are they going to bring suit, and what set of laws are they going to sue under? The SL no longer exists, so its laws are moot. I doubt if they're going to get anywhere suing in the transstellar's home system, and, outside of confiscating local assets, they're not going to get anywhere suing in their own courts: there are no assets they haven't already seized and they probably had no laws against whatever the transstellars did anyway. Manticore or Haven? The transstellar can plead lack of jurisdiction.


Very good points!

I am amusing myself with thoughts of a scenario like this:

RCSD* enforcement vessel SDP Rule of Law pulling into a system to enforce a property seizure order.

*RCSD = Royal Court Sheriff's Department
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Re: Reparations
Post by stewart   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:58 pm

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The basic concept of reparations -- at least in terms of individual systems -- goes against the "Harrington Doctrine" of a hand in friendship.

As the SL is broken up, the Trans-Stellars, as corporations can be dealt with, evidence Mike Henke's actions in Meyers -- get honest locals in the positions and stand back -- let them clear out the dirty laundry.

There WILL be individuals / systems trying to game the issue -- see text comments after Selicia partition (War of Honor ?) If newly independent systems / regions do not play fair, they can get a "New Tuscany" treatment, limited commerce visits, tariff's on their merchants, etc.

just my 2 cents (or credits) worth

-- Stewart
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Re: Reparations
Post by BrianC   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:09 pm

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BrianC wrote:I think there will be reparations. I would imagine rather a sum of money or an amount per dead, or land etc we would see something in the way of a reduced military status for x years and an enforced most favoured nation status for trading concerns. maybe 0 tariffs for manticoran/haven goods.

the idea of reparations, perhaps more properly conditions. In this case is to enable a true democratic nation to arise from the ashes by encouraging an economy based around open trade and not the civil economy that they had before.


oops that should have been.
I would imagine rather than a sum of money or an amount per dead, or land etc

the reparations or more pro would be more like what the US imposed on Japan after WW2, the intent there to build
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Re: Reparations
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:02 pm

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I think the Transstellars are going to have a difficult time hanging onto a whole lot of systems unless they are firmly in control of local police and military including their own security troops.

Why? Because even if systems who's "tyrants" or "dictators" can't get military force from OFS to shore up the regimes, they may end up "nationalizing" the transstellar's property just as fast as a local revolutionary group would should it succeed in throwing off the current corrupt systems.

Nobody has mentioned the transstellars having their own private armies. They have depended on OFS/FF. If I were a newly in charge of a system through a revolt against the prior government, one of my first moves would be to change the laws and get the assets and businesses that made the system so desirable to the transstellars out of thier hands.

You don't even have to kill anybody, you just eject them as "foreign nationals" that pose a signifant risk to the safety and stability of the System--and nationalize all those assets. You could turn the assets back to original owners or just sell them to your own citizens or some other option. Without OFS to give the orders- and without the transstellars being able to quickly organize ----and arrive with-- some force to compel the locals to "give back" the industries, they are just out of luck. Legal problems--well, the legal system will have changed and the local government will enforce the new one. That new one will NOT be slanted to protect the TS interest.

You may find a lot of places like Meyers where the TS and OFS had overlaid the local laws with "special provisions" which protected them but ultimatly leave them vulnerable to criminal proceedings for all the things they did- under the existing laws of the System AT THE TIME THEY COMMITED THE ACTS.
Fill you prisons, confiscate the ill-gotten gains and move forward.
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Re: Reparations
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:04 pm

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I think the Transstellars are going to have a difficult time hanging onto a whole lot of systems unless they are firmly in control of local police and military including their own security troops.

Why? Because even if systems who's "tyrants" or "dictators" can't get military force from OFS to shore up the regimes, they may end up "nationalizing" the transstellar's property just as fast as a local revolutionary group would should it succeed in throwing off the current corrupt systems.

Nobody has mentioned the transstellars having their own private armies. They have depended on OFS/FF. If I were a newly in charge of a system through a revolt against the prior government, one of my first moves would be to change the laws and get the assets and businesses that made the system so desirable to the transstellars out of thier hands.

You don't even have to kill anybody, you just eject them as "foreign nationals" that pose a signifant risk to the safety and stability of the System--and nationalize all those assets. You could turn the assets back to original owners or just sell them to your own citizens or some other option. Without OFS to give the orders- and without the transstellars being able to quickly organize ----and arrive with-- some force to compel the locals to "give back" the industries, they are just out of luck. Legal problems--well, the legal system will have changed and the local government will enforce the new one. That new one will NOT be slanted to protect the TS interest.

You may find a lot of places like Meyers where the TS and OFS had overlaid the local laws with "special provisions" which protected them but ultimatly leave them vulnerable to criminal proceedings for all the things they did- under the existing laws of the System AT THE TIME THEY COMMITED THE ACTS.
Fill you prisons, confiscate the ill-gotten gains and move forward.
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Re: Reparations
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:36 am

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Hi Brigade XO,

Kudos, excellent points as usual, I always enjoy your posts.

I would add that we have textev of some private corporations, like Manpower and others based on Mesa, though not exclusive to Mesa, of having their own navies albeit not very big [largest are BC's], because no one else would defend their properties, which probably include whole planets if not systems spread across the galaxy.

Granted these are a relative handful of all the transtellars [a range of less than 1% to 1/2%?], but they will have to be accounted for by the GA because some of them might attempt to undo the GA liberation of the protectorates etc.

While no ground forces are mentioned, there seem to be plenty of mercenary forces around that might be on long term contracts with various consortiums.

While they wouldn't be big enough to handle threats to everything at once, I suspect their operating doctrine is similar to FF's; deterrence by a small presence rather than overwhelming force always on hand.

Given about 2/3 of the SL relies on LAC's, besides the SLN, I suspect most of the verge also relies on LAC's, so even a handful of real hyper warships, mainly light cruisers and destroyers, are enough to deal with most threats.

Systems controlled by transtellars known to have a private navy will have to have a more permanent GA presence than those who don't until the private navy is fully accounted for.

I further suspect the MAlign has done its best to set up or sabotage such private navies as part of the preparation for the establishment of the RF, and who knows, some might be commissioned to appear as the RMN in certain times and places, with the same kind of explosive precautions Mesa had for the SS TG at Torch.

I also suspect it won't just be the protectorates that will be confiscating transtellar assets, because the shells may have some strong feelings about their relationships with various transtellars too, and may coordinate their efforts to seek justice by seizing all the local properties of the same transtellars simultaneously etc, for maximum bargaining power.

The RTU was hated in the TC for its abuses of its power, but none of them seem impossible for transtellars to have inaugurated several centuries earlier and easily exceeded all too often since.

The advantages of the wormhole network in aiding and abetting the protectorates and shells in accomplishing their various revenges will probably seal their bond with the GA.

The GA may even show them how. :D

L


Brigade XO wrote:I think the Transstellars are going to have a difficult time hanging onto a whole lot of systems unless they are firmly in control of local police and military including their own security troops.

Why? Because even if systems who's "tyrants" or "dictators" can't get military force from OFS to shore up the regimes, they may end up "nationalizing" the transstellar's property just as fast as a local revolutionary group would should it succeed in throwing off the current corrupt systems.

Nobody has mentioned the transstellars having their own private armies. They have depended on OFS/FF. If I were a newly in charge of a system through a revolt against the prior government, one of my first moves would be to change the laws and get the assets and businesses that made the system so desirable to the transstellars out of thier hands.

You don't even have to kill anybody, you just eject them as "foreign nationals" that pose a signifant risk to the safety and stability of the System--and nationalize all those assets. You could turn the assets back to original owners or just sell them to your own citizens or some other option. Without OFS to give the orders- and without the transstellars being able to quickly organize ----and arrive with-- some force to compel the locals to "give back" the industries, they are just out of luck. Legal problems--well, the legal system will have changed and the local government will enforce the new one. That new one will NOT be slanted to protect the TS interest.

You may find a lot of places like Meyers where the TS and OFS had overlaid the local laws with "special provisions" which protected them but ultimatly leave them vulnerable to criminal proceedings for all the things they did- under the existing laws of the System AT THE TIME THEY COMMITED THE ACTS.
Fill you prisons, confiscate the ill-gotten gains and move forward.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Reparations
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:06 am

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Hi Brigade XO,

To continue following your points of how almost all transtellars will be punished, I expect the ransom of current in system staffs will involve the repatriation of all those who committed the various crimes that are still alive, to face judgement for their actions.

The GA might blacklist all those who don't cooperate, which might compel compliance to avoid all the economic costs that would entail.

Confiscation by former lackeys desperate to appease their angry populations, if not for the cash to defend themselves [but just how much liquidity is there in space infrastructure or local real estate?] might provide the revolutionary group taking power with cleaner hands than it thought.

I expect the MAlign to have planned on the corporate navies to have access to the wormhole network for their 'policing' duties, though we don't have its reaction yet to Lacoon II.

Given DW's Insurrection solution to corporate extra territoriality, I think we all know what's going to happen to most transtellars, the fun will be in how inventive RFC is in his punishments. 8-)

Given all the TS assets in the verge will also be essentially cut off when the protectorates and shells seize all those between them and the old league core corporate headquarters, it won't be pretty there either under the new reality.

Which will fuel plenty of hatred and revenge for new enemies to justify their attacks on the GA etc plenty of grist for our master storyteller.

L


Brigade XO wrote:I think the Transstellars are going to have a difficult time hanging onto a whole lot of systems unless they are firmly in control of local police and military including their own security troops.

Why? Because even if systems who's "tyrants" or "dictators" can't get military force from OFS to shore up the regimes, they may end up "nationalizing" the transstellar's property just as fast as a local revolutionary group would should it succeed in throwing off the current corrupt systems.

Nobody has mentioned the transstellars having their own private armies. They have depended on OFS/FF. If I were a newly in charge of a system through a revolt against the prior government, one of my first moves would be to change the laws and get the assets and businesses that made the system so desirable to the transstellars out of thier hands.

You don't even have to kill anybody, you just eject them as "foreign nationals" that pose a signifant risk to the safety and stability of the System--and nationalize all those assets. You could turn the assets back to original owners or just sell them to your own citizens or some other option. Without OFS to give the orders- and without the transstellars being able to quickly organize ----and arrive with-- some force to compel the locals to "give back" the industries, they are just out of luck. Legal problems--well, the legal system will have changed and the local government will enforce the new one. That new one will NOT be slanted to protect the TS interest.

You may find a lot of places like Meyers where the TS and OFS had overlaid the local laws with "special provisions" which protected them but ultimatly leave them vulnerable to criminal proceedings for all the things they did- under the existing laws of the System AT THE TIME THEY COMMITED THE ACTS.
Fill you prisons, confiscate the ill-gotten gains and move forward.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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