Verge Liberation Movements

Weird Harold wrote:

Lazalarlives wrote:As to Firebrand's association with the OFS prior to his work for Mesa, I recall his mental note about why he'd been working with so many 'liberation' fronts over the years. Something about being able to identify the malcontents' leadership when OFS made their move.

The Alignment is following this pattern - using the various fronts to foment unrest so they can step in and solve the problem. It helps even more when you know exactly what weapons are on planet and who to grab in the first go-round to track their locations.

I don't think the MAlign has anything like OFS' motives in mind with the current campaign to foment rebellions to blame on Manticore. They have no intention of stepping in to solve any problems, they just want OFS and Frontier Fleet tied up and blaming Manticore for the rebellions.

Their aim with regard to Manticore is not to spread the RMN thin trying to redeem "manticore's word" but to undermine their credibility with Successor States. Manticore isn't supposed to find out about any of the rebellions until well after they are crushed and "evidence" of Manticore's promised support is uncovered.

Lazalarlives wrote:Detweiller may have been a genius in biology, but I think he skipped too many history classes. Either that, or he's one of those people who believe 'The reason those other people failed to create the ideal <whatever> state is because they just weren't as smart as I am...'

I assume you mean Leonard Detweiler here?

The same could be said of his clones and most of the Mesan alpha lines; the core of the onion, so to speak, but Leonard wasn't quite as megalomaniacal as you suggest. His original plan was probably not as heartless and ambitious as Albrecht & Sons and the long-range planning committee have turned it into.

Still, the general concept of "human perfection through genetic engineering" is one of those "only I have the vision" kinds of conceits that inevitability leads people to try forcing their vision on everyone else.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but just to give it another whack. The current Detweillers are not clones of Leonard Detweiller. In fact, the "boys" are clones of Albrecht only because the onion believed Der Tag was coming pretty darn soon and he was going to need several really capable deputies to deal with it. Right up to his generation, each Detweiller had seen an effort to improve upon the previous generation's Detweiller.

One might argue that any human produced ex-utero is a "clone," and in that sense quite a few of the Detweillers have been clones over the years. I am using the "not a clone" terminology here to maker clear that no one had attempted a "copy machine" version of The Leader in previous generations.

And, for what it's worth, I don't recall ever saying the Leonard was part of the Detweillier Plan, per se, at all. I don't remember saying that he wasn't, either, you understand, but I doubt I ever said either one of them because I deliberately don't want the reader to know yet one way or the other.

RFC,
My apologies for putting my foot in it re: Leonard Detweiller's influence on the plan. I guess I read too much into the 'mad scientist' version of Detweiller from the Beowulf point of view.
I know Albrecht and the committee were needing solid leadership for the next generation, but does the ascent of the clones mean that the Alignment has moved to a post-random reproduction plan? And if so, how many 'kids' are unknowingly clones of one parent or even a different relative?
And just of curiousity, how much of the Onion's 'plan' has suffered drift like one of your other series' 'grand plan' has gone terribly awry? (If I may be so bold to ask?)

Thank you for taking time to help get us on the right track (or in this case, off a track that may or may not be going the right direction!)

Dave

I believe I recall a passage that mentioned -very briefly and in passing- that there were other operations like Firebrands going on in other areas of the Verge.

That would fit with the Detweiler type plans as it would ultimately set "liberation movements" into motion all around the frontiers which both the local systems and OFS/FF would be forced to deal with. For OFS that means sending in passification troops to clean up after FF beats the crap out of the planets (and other parts of systems as needed)

All of that will just inflame various groups within and without the SL. It will also strain the logistics of FF (which is the actual experienced part of the SLN for dealing with this sort of stuff) and spread them wide to cover all these fires. It will also start eating away both at the troop/materials strength and put them away from their bases.

From the Alignment's standpoint the best results would be massive casualties on the sides of 1) the local dictator/tyrant/etc, 2) heavy losses to the OFS troops and 3) breakdown of smooth operations and reactions of FF. This would be just great for the Alignment if many of the revolts transition into long term low to medium civil and separatists conflicts that smolder and flare for YEARS.

Very shortly a lot of powers (systems in the SL and elsewhere) are going to try and pull out of supporting what are dirty and messy little wars that only drain resources. The Alignment really doesn't care who may eventually "win" in any given system as what they want is places ripe for their agents such as the RF to eventually step in to bring peace and order--on the lines of Alignment plans.

runsforcelery wrote:I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but just to give it another whack. The current Detweillers are not clones of Leonard Detweiller. In fact, the "boys" are clones of Albrecht only because the onion believed Der Tag was coming pretty darn soon and he was going to need several really capable deputies to deal with it. Right up to his generation, each Detweiller had seen an effort to improve upon the previous generation's Detweiller.

I stand corrected.

runsforcelery wrote:And, for what it's worth, I don't recall ever saying the Leonard was part of the Detweillier Plan, per se, at all. I don't remember saying that he wasn't, either, you understand, but I doubt I ever said either one of them because I deliberately don't want the reader to know yet one way or the other.

No, you haven't said anything one way or another. It just seems obvious that a committee (or two) has become involved along the way and Leonard's mouse design has evolved into an elephant.

Weird Harold wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but just to give it another whack. The current Detweillers are not clones of Leonard Detweiller. In fact, the "boys" are clones of Albrecht only because the onion believed Der Tag was coming pretty darn soon and he was going to need several really capable deputies to deal with it. Right up to his generation, each Detweiller had seen an effort to improve upon the previous generation's Detweiller.

I stand corrected.

runsforcelery wrote:And, for what it's worth, I don't recall ever saying the Leonard was part of the Detweillier Plan, per se, at all. I don't remember saying that he wasn't, either, you understand, but I doubt I ever said either one of them because I deliberately don't want the reader to know yet one way or the other.

No, you haven't said anything one way or another. It just seems obvious that a committee (or two) has become involved along the way and Leonard's mouse design has evolved into an elephant.

I think, Harold, that some of the things being pointed out about widespread liberation movements provides good rational for building those small units you were talking about soonest. The Rolands combined with the Mark 16s are probably the quickest to build.

Don

n7axw wrote:I think, Harold, that some of the things being pointed out about widespread liberation movements provides good rational for building those small units you were talking about soonest. The Rolands combined with the Mark 16s are probably the quickest to build.

Yeah, that's always been a part of why I contend the GA needs more smaller units to deal with the League and SLN. I think a CA or CL production push would be more productive; a Roland just doesn't have the magazine capacity for sustained independent operations nor does it have sufficient marines for any kind of ground or boarding action -- most of them don't have Abigail and Matteo to improvise with either.

For that matter, a Havenite CA or CL would probably work better for supporting insurgencies.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think, Harold, that some of the things being pointed out about widespread liberation movements provides good rational for building those small units you were talking about soonest. The Rolands combined with the Mark 16s are probably the quickest to build.

Yeah, that's always been a part of why I contend the GA needs more smaller units to deal with the League and SLN. I think a CA or CL production push would be more productive; a Roland just doesn't have the magazine capacity for sustained independent operations nor does it have sufficient marines for any kind of ground or boarding action -- most of them don't have Abigail and Matteo to improvise with either.

For that matter, a Havenite CA or CL would probably work better for supporting insurgencies.

You may be right. But if you think in terms of divisions accompanied by ammumition ships, the Rolands aren't all that shabby. As for the marines, that is really your strongest point. That would have to be addressed somehow. With anything short of Agamenmons on a sustained op, I think you have to send along ammo ships anyway... something like Volcano.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think, Harold, that some of the things being pointed out about widespread liberation movements provides good rational for building those small units you were talking about soonest. The Rolands combined with the Mark 16s are probably the quickest to build.

Yeah, that's always been a part of why I contend the GA needs more smaller units to deal with the League and SLN. I think a CA or CL production push would be more productive; a Roland just doesn't have the magazine capacity for sustained independent operations nor does it have sufficient marines for any kind of ground or boarding action -- most of them don't have Abigail and Matteo to improvise with either.

For that matter, a Havenite CA or CL would probably work better for supporting insurgencies.

Thats why I came up with Clan class patrol destroyers. These are Roland class destroyers with 2 missile tubes removed fore and aft and space for 2 squads of marines moved in.

The lead ships are;

HMS Bright Water
HMS Laughing River
HMS Bright Heart
HMS Damp Ground
HMS Swaying Fronds

saber964 wrote:Thats why I came up with Clan class patrol destroyers. These are Roland class destroyers with 2 missile tubes removed fore and aft and space for 2 squads of marines moved in.

I don't think that will work well. That produces a very odd shaped area in a very inconvenient area of the hull.

The flag bridge and assorted support areas is all you need. It's obviously got the actual flag bridge, a conference room, the squadron COs quarters, the 4 or 6 rooms that provide quarters for the assorted commanders, LTCs and LTs that make up his staff, the 2-4 rooms that provide quarters for the various enlisted that round out his staff. Even without converting the actual bridge you can certainly fit a squad to platoon in there. Power armor might be a problem, but it will certainly also be a problem trying to get from a converted missile tube to the boat bay too.

kzt wrote:

saber964 wrote:Thats why I came up with Clan class patrol destroyers. These are Roland class destroyers with 2 missile tubes removed fore and aft and space for 2 squads of marines moved in.

I don't think that will work well. That produces a very odd shaped area in a very inconvenient area of the hull.

The flag bridge and assorted support areas is all you need. It's obviously got the actual flag bridge, a conference room, the squadron COs quarters, the 4 or 6 rooms that provide quarters for the assorted commanders, LTCs and LTs that make up his staff, the 2-4 rooms that provide quarters for the various enlisted that round out his staff. Even without converting the actual bridge you can certainly fit a squad to platoon in there. Power armor might be a problem, but it will certainly also be a problem trying to get from a converted missile tube to the boat bay too.

What you need is probably some kind of armed transport, which I think already exist.