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Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?

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Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Phalanx   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:07 pm

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Manticore has taken a tough line on Mercenaries.

In Manticore's view, Mercenaries are used by smaller nations as "rent-a-thugs" to harass shipping or attack other systems outright.

However, a smaller Star Nation might say "Well, not everyone has a Navy and Merchant Marine that can cover most of its commercial traffic. Some of us smaller Star Nations would like to protect ourselves without depending on larger states.Furthermore, we object to being told how to allocate our own defense spending."

Is this policy justified, or a bias generated from Manticore's experience with mercenaries.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by robert132   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:31 pm

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While the choice is up to the employer it should be noted that historically mercs tend to be less dependable than your own armed forces because they primarily are motivated by money rather than any sense of patriotism.

There is that tendency for the merc to decide that when the going gets tough to decide that no amount of money is worth loosing one's life. You can't spend it if you're dead after all.

Historically merc have tended to be thugs who fall outside of normal military discipline. While I hesitate to mention another author here, Eric Flint has it right in his 1632 series in that while the commander may be an honorable man the thugs often hired to fill out his lines usually weren't. Thieves, murderer and so on.

Think Silisian pirates and "freedom fighters." David has it right, they may start out as hired troops or privateers but if the opportunity presents itself to make a huge "score" by turning on their employer ...
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Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Hornblower   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:48 pm

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What about military forces, which do not used conscription, but hired soldiers (like US or Manticore)
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:26 pm

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There have been lots of hired soldiers who perform their job only to be under paid, not paid or turned upon throughout history. My own Viking heritage is full of Mercenaries, and what Manticore would call pirates.

One only need look to Colonel Mike Hoare for an honourable Mercenary force. The Wild Geese. (I am an Honorary Member).

Although I have to admit the Vikings were more a product of their time, they didn't hold the religious values of modern time, let alone Manticorian times. Quite Klingon like, wonder who they were based upon?

While I would never call a Viking a privateer. There were a lot more like the Silesian Pirate. Would rather have you fight back than flee or hide, and would likely take captives for slaves with some rights and some hope. Not too much!

Not dregs of the militaries, but crack elite units. They had to be. More like the sub-wolf packs of WWII. Different purpose, different reason and more ambitious.

RFC likes to stereo type all pirates as the worst of the worst of the military but rarely did any of such ever be successful mercenaries. They usually belonged to a military, select bad units that got all the bad jobs.

Most Royalty is based upon pirates ambitious and charismatic, leaders with enough intelligence to choose to lead. Most were at one time or another very despicable. Yet Manticore seems to be something else. Although it wouldn't really be any different than any other royalty from history.

Just most royalty begins to believe it was never like that, or is scared that those who choose to be might challenge or replace them.

Loyalty is either bought, honourable, or the lively expectation of favours to come.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:54 pm

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I agree with the general characterization of mercenaries. But for a different take, read Elizabeth Moon's series featuring Ky Vatta.

Don
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Roguevictory   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:33 pm

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Have their been any mercs or privateers shown in the honorverse that weren't either evil themselves, or working for the villains of the stories they appear in, besides that one former RMN officer tuned privateer and his ships? I know there were a few Silesian Independence movements portrayed more sympathetically but I think the ships of theirs we saw were under the direct control of the movements in question rather then being privateers working for them.

And yes I know a lot of historical privateers went pirate, or back to being pirates as the case may be but not all of them. Plus some historical pirates were known to treat the crews of ships they captured civilly but it seems like all you ever see in Honorverse is pirates who are based on the worst horror stories of historical piracy.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:45 pm

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Phalanx wrote:Is this policy justified, or a bias generated from Manticore's experience with mercenaries.



That's hard to say without knowing the context of Manticore's stated opposition. Can you give us a reference to where you found Manticore's position on Mercenaries.

If one looks at the wider depiction of mercenaries in Science Fiction and Fantasy, mercenaries and mercenary companies are like snowflakes, no two are alike.

In the honorverse, we haven't seen very many mercenaries on-screen. Those that we have seen have been "more than mercenaries" driven to selling their services because they are outcasts -- the PNE, The Templetons, and Warnecke's thugs. Those examples would tend to give the impression that "Mercenary" is a synonym for "nutcase."

If Manticore's experience with mercenaries, going as far back as the Travis Long story in Beginnings, is that mercenaries are used by unscrupulous people for unscrupulous ends, then a position of intolerance is probably justified.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:02 pm

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n7axw wrote:I agree with the general characterization of mercenaries. But for a different take, read Elizabeth Moon's series featuring Ky Vatta.

Don



Trading in danger was a great series.

I always return to it thinking of the freighter trade and like. Implant take and no need for treecat telepathy is great too. Even the communications which I won't go into as it is the basis of the stories.
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by SCC   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:32 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:In the honorverse, we haven't seen very many mercenaries on-screen. Those that we have seen have been "more than mercenaries" driven to selling their services because they are outcasts -- the PNE, The Templetons, and Warnecke's thugs. Those examples would tend to give the impression that "Mercenary" is a synonym for "nutcase."


I'm pretty sure we've only seen mercs once, those guys the Peeps used to employ to guard the president, other then historical Andemarian
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Re: Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:45 pm

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SCC wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:...the PNE, The Templetons, and Warnecke's thugs. ...


I'm pretty sure we've only seen mercs once, those guys the Peeps used to employ to guard the president, other then historical Andemarian


Those are the only reputable mercenaries we've see, and I had forgotten about them. Thandi Palane's "Amazons" were also "good" mercenaries, but I wouldn't call them "reputable." :D

Your point does illustrate part of the problem: just what counts as a "mercenary."
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