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Marriage in the Honorverse

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:58 pm

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Lazalarlives wrote:Skimper,
IMHO, I'm pretty sure RFC is applying the term to any recognized union of consenting adults for the purpose of combining property and caring for any offspring/adopted offspring. Beowulf rules seem to favor an extended clan of adults to ensure stability for the kids, not necessarily the pleasure of the adults (which is still an issue, but not the central one).
Ultimately, the children are what a marriage is about - the continuation of the 'family' in the next generation. The other benefits/problems/issues are simply icing on the cake.
I'd have fewer problems with the modern 'marriage' debate if we'd get back to that core idea. So far most of the beneficiaries have been divorce lawyers, not kids.

Just my two cents,
Dave


What he said!


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by Lazalarlives   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:59 pm

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Thank you, sir! :shock:
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by KNick   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:18 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Lazalarlives wrote:Skimper,
IMHO, I'm pretty sure RFC is applying the term to any recognized union of consenting adults for the purpose of combining property and caring for any offspring/adopted offspring. Beowulf rules seem to favor an extended clan of adults to ensure stability for the kids, not necessarily the pleasure of the adults (which is still an issue, but not the central one).
Ultimately, the children are what a marriage is about - the continuation of the 'family' in the next generation. The other benefits/problems/issues are simply icing on the cake.
I'd have fewer problems with the modern 'marriage' debate if we'd get back to that core idea. So far most of the beneficiaries have been divorce lawyers, not kids.

Just my two cents,
Dave


What he said!


I always thought you had a sane outlook on life, RFC. Thank you for reaffirming that.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by DrMegaverse   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:41 pm

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Lazalarlives wrote:Ultimately, the children are what a marriage is about - the continuation of the 'family' in the next generation.



As the male counterpart in an infertile couple I have to say, my marriage is not about children.

My marriage is simply about my wife and I, our rights over each other and our property (legally speaking), and our commitment to each other (emotionally speaking).

This is what I have taken away from the concept of marriage both personally, and within the Honorverse.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by dreamrider   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:51 pm

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DrMegaverse wrote:
Lazalarlives wrote:Ultimately, the children are what a marriage is about - the continuation of the 'family' in the next generation.



As the male counterpart in an infertile couple I have to say, my marriage is not about children.

My marriage is simply about my wife and I, our rights over each other and our property (legally speaking), and our commitment to each other (emotionally speaking).

This is what I have taken away from the concept of marriage both personally, and within the Honorverse.


Believe us, Doc. If a miracle happened, and y'all ended up with children, the marriage would be about children. The marriage would also still be about all those things you spoke of...and all of those things would be about the children.

dreamrider
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by DrMegaverse   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:10 am

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dreamrider wrote:
Believe us, Doc. If a miracle happened, and y'all ended up with children, the marriage would be about children. The marriage would also still be about all those things you spoke of...and all of those things would be about the children.

dreamrider


And if said "miracle" never happens, what then? I understand the quid pro quo here, but it's still a tad insensitive and generic, in my opinion.

Look I'm not trying to stand on my soap box here, this isn't the appropriate time or place for that kind of thing. However it's likely said "miracle" will not happen for us, and the pervasive thought that the above criteria are the defining factor are part of the pain and exlcusion most societies create which my wife and I feel. I'm not saying folks with kids don't "x,y,z", nor am I playing for sympathy...I just want the point made that there is more to the equation for many, many people.

Ok, 2 cents shared. I apologize for derailing the subject.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by hanuman   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:17 am

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Lazalarlives wrote:I'd have fewer problems with the modern 'marriage' debate if we'd get back to that core idea. So far most of the beneficiaries have been divorce lawyers, not kids.

Just my two cents,
Dave


Spoken like a true heterosexual with no idea what it is like to be told that YOUR relationship is substandard, that YOUR family is worth less than others.

Sorry, Lazalarlives and all the others who have been commenting on this, but you brought this particular topic up. I just refuse to back down on this point.

Unfortunately (from your perspective) marriage is NOT just about children. In the United States the federal government provides 1 138 tax and other benefits to married couples. Many of those benefits do centre on children, yes, but most do not.

Moreover, if marriage was JUST about children, then logic suggests that any couple that cannot have children, or is too old to have children, should be banned from getting married in the first place. Also, that same logic suggests that any couple whose children are no longer dependent upon them, should by law be required to divorce.

The question Americans should ask themselves, is this: are we really serious about our commitment to the principle of equal treatment before the law for ALL American citizens? Or do we believe that some Americans are more equal than others?

As for the statement regarding lawyers and children, that is one of the most unthinking, superficial and callous remarks I've read on these forums in all the time I've been a member.

The fact of the matter is this. If even ONE child can be certain that his/her parents will both have the right to make medical decisions for him/her, then all the boohaa about marriage equality was worth it. If even ONE child can be certain that tonight federal and state welfare benefits will provide enough food for dinner, then all the boohaa about marriage equality was worth it.

I can go on and on and on, but the truth is that, today, not just one or a few, but thousands upon thousands of American children, whose parents just happen to be of the same sex, can go to bed with the certainty that THEIR families enjoy the same legal freedoms, benefits and responsibilities that ALL heterosexual families are entitled to.

It is just a pity, and in my opinion as a foreigner who greatly admire America, a great mark of shame, that so many of the United States continue to fail in their commitment to that most important of American values.

Sorry for the rant, but like I said, someone else started the topic, and marriage is an important enough subject that I cannot simply remain quiet.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:40 am

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hanuman wrote:
Lazalarlives wrote:I'd have fewer problems with the modern 'marriage' debate if we'd get back to that core idea. So far most of the beneficiaries have been divorce lawyers, not kids.

Just my two cents,
Dave


Spoken like a true heterosexual with no idea what it is like to be told that YOUR relationship is substandard, that YOUR family is worth less than others.

Sorry, Lazalarlives and all the others who have been commenting on this, but you brought this particular topic up. I just refuse to back down on this point.

Unfortunately (from your perspective) marriage is NOT just about children. In the United States the federal government provides 1 138 tax and other benefits to married couples. Many of those benefits do centre on children, yes, but most do not.

Moreover, if marriage was JUST about children, then logic suggests that any couple that cannot have children, or is too old to have children, should be banned from getting married in the first place. Also, that same logic suggests that any couple whose children are no longer dependent upon them, should by law be required to divorce.

The question Americans should ask themselves, is this: are we really serious about our commitment to the principle of equal treatment before the law for ALL American citizens? Or do we believe that some Americans are more equal than others?

As for the statement regarding lawyers and children, that is one of the most unthinking, superficial and callous remarks I've read on these forums in all the time I've been a member.

The fact of the matter is this. If even ONE child can be certain that his/her parents will both have the right to make medical decisions for him/her, then all the boohaa about marriage equality was worth it. If even ONE child can be certain that tonight federal and state welfare benefits will provide enough food for dinner, then all the boohaa about marriage equality was worth it.

I can go on and on and on, but the truth is that, today, not just one or a few, but thousands upon thousands of American children, whose parents just happen to be of the same sex, can go to bed with the certainty that THEIR families enjoy the same legal freedoms, benefits and responsibilities that ALL heterosexual families are entitled to.

It is just a pity, and in my opinion as a foreigner who greatly admire America, a great mark of shame, that so many of the United States continue to fail in their commitment to that most important of American values.

Sorry for the rant, but like I said, someone else started the topic, and marriage is an important enough subject that I cannot simply remain quiet.



Supposedly in the Honorverse, and with Bigamy running rampant, one even a Gay Lesbian couple can have a test tube baby, either with a donor other component, or a Marriage for Children with a Counter part of the opposite sex. Even if only for donation purposes. Heck the donations might just be a DNA Hair Sample. Should one be unable to provide a more direct component. It is 2000 years in the future. Test tube babies are the norm in Manticore.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:52 am

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As for money and taxes and inheritance and who gets the kids in a divorce. How many partners one can have and how marriage works while still on active duty???

For Instance if Khumalo and Terekov got married, and then Married Lord Stefan Young, would they becomes Lords as well?

Would Khumalo become a Sir when Marrying Terekov who he has a fondness for? Would Terekov and Young both become distant members of the Winton Imperial Family?

See how it gets all confusing and we havn't even considered kids yet.
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Re: Marriage in the Honorverse
Post by Fireflair   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:03 am

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To the original topic, there is at least one passage that discusses marriage. Mostly it is in regards to the advent of prolong. Essentially it said that marriage had to be re-evaluated because of the length of people's lives. Society in the Honor-verse is still adjusting, but the idea of 'marriage is forever' was on the down swing. The theory seemed to be more along the lines of: whatever makes a couple happy. It's none of the government's business beyond inheritances.

Divorce still exists. Unions are not only dissolved but adjusted. For example, when Honor marries Hamish and Emily. Their priest says something to the effect of: So long as both of them are agree-able to changing their vows, there's nothing wrong with you marrying them both.

The priest makes it clear that the happiness of their union is the most important thing.

IRC, Skimper, when marrying into a noble family, the new spouse would be lord/lady or whatever title the already ennobled spouse had. Unless their own title is higher then their spouse's. But they would not gain a seat in the Lord's simply for marrying a noble.

For the children, whomever the designated heir is, would hold the 'heir's seat', the others would not be seated in the Lord's. The children would have an honorary title before their names, even if not the heir.
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