Raid on Sol System-Another Option

[Edit] Got aphelion and perihelion mixed up.

doug941 wrote: Honor was watching traffic that was (mostly) already in-system, your drone shell(s) would be watching for hyper footprints. As an example if you have drones with a detection radius of 10 million k, you would need 245 drones to complete one ring at Jupiter on the elliptic. How many to complete the shell with decent overlap? 10,000? Add to that outer shells and you get shells larger than you can deploy or use. As an aside, the drones in Basilisk were deployed in the inner and middle system, a shell for Earth would need to be in the outer system.

Sol is a G2 type star. According to this pearl:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/93/1

the hyper limit of a G2 is 21.12 light minutes, which is well inside the orbit of Jupiter (39.6 light minutes at perihelion). You want your sensor net positioned to cover the hyper limit, so drones covering Sol would probably be positioned inside the vicinity of the asteroid belt, which starts at around 20 light minutes.

For reference, Basilisk is a G5 star with a hyper limit of 19.8 light minutes, so the task would be covering Sol would be comparable.

Dafmeister wrote:[Edit] Got aphelion and perihelion mixed up.

doug941 wrote: Honor was watching traffic that was (mostly) already in-system, your drone shell(s) would be watching for hyper footprints. As an example if you have drones with a detection radius of 10 million k, you would need 245 drones to complete one ring at Jupiter on the elliptic. How many to complete the shell with decent overlap? 10,000? Add to that outer shells and you get shells larger than you can deploy or use. As an aside, the drones in Basilisk were deployed in the inner and middle system, a shell for Earth would need to be in the outer system.

Sol is a G2 type star. According to this pearl:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/93/1

the hyper limit of a G2 is 21.12 light minutes, which is well inside the orbit of Jupiter (39.6 light minutes at perihelion). You want your sensor net positioned to cover the hyper limit, so drones covering Sol would probably be positioned inside the vicinity of the asteroid belt, which starts at around 20 light minutes.

For reference, Basilisk is a G5 star with a hyper limit of 19.8 light minutes, so the task would be covering Sol would be comparable.

That would work if you translate in or near Jovian space, if you translate near Uranus, Neptune etc you're screwed, blued and tattooed. This is why I keep mentioning multiple shells. KZT's post about shipboard sensors would give a range of roughly 2.15 billion kilometers, drones would quite a bit less.

doug941 wrote: That would work if you translate in or near Jovian space, if you translate near Uranus, Neptune etc you're screwed, blued and tattooed. This is why I keep mentioning multiple shells. KZT's post about shipboard sensors would give a range of roughly 2.15 billion kilometers, drones would quite a bit less.

I'm not sure how far out a downward translation can be detected, but they're pretty noisy. If the system defence arrays can pick up downward translations light months away, then I'd expect ship and drone sensors to be able to detect them at several light hours.

Dafmeister wrote:

doug941 wrote: That would work if you translate in or near Jovian space, if you translate near Uranus, Neptune etc you're screwed, blued and tattooed. This is why I keep mentioning multiple shells. KZT's post about shipboard sensors would give a range of roughly 2.15 billion kilometers, drones would quite a bit less.

I'm not sure how far out a downward translation can be detected, but they're pretty noisy. If the system defence arrays can pick up downward translations light months away, then I'd expect ship and drone sensors to be able to detect them at several light hours.

Like KZT posted earlier, arrays are the size of large cities.

doug941 wrote:
Like KZT posted earlier, arrays are the size of large cities.

More smallish planets - the Manticore system arrays are described as thousands of kilometres across, which is why they have a detection range orders of magnitude greater than ships.

I could be entirely wrong about all this. The bottom line is, I don't know how far out a ship or a recon drone can detect a ship crossing the alpha wall.

I believe that RFC (Weber) has actually discussed this in either a pearl or a forum post.

The gist of his discussion is that the cost of sending a battle fleet to a system to take out their detector arrays is much higher than the cost to replace the detector arrays.

It's kind of like using a $500,000 cruise missile to take out a $200,000 RADAR installation. There's no question you could do it, it's just not as beneficial as you might think (economically) and it could be [potentially] replaced before the launching platform even made it back to port.

Think about the crew, support, maintenance and fleet train required to send a raid to Sol (or wherever). The cost of the munitions and the 'wear and tear' and amortisation of the platform (SDPs etc.) lifespan. Don't forget to factor in training and travel times. Compare that to the cost of the industrial processes to crank out detector arrays and the cost of commercial 'tugs' to position them.

Couple of points here.

One is that the Alignment doesn't yet know about the "Harrington Doctrin". What they are learning is that Manticore is taking wormhole bridges and junctions. The also know that while Manticore has smashed each of the sorties against it by SLN, they don't know- but are seriously worried about and also about to learn that Mike is showing up at Mesa.

The other is that while the Mandarins and the SLN brass are struggleing with how to show they "are doing something" vs the defeats by Manticore of any of the SLN aggression, they haven't yet seemed to notice that other than the developing information on Manticore taking all sorts of wormholes, that Mantiocre is NOT attacking SLN member worlds. Oh, they are talking about "pathways to the heart of the League" and such, but nobody is attacking League Member worlds.

It is that lack of attacking the League that I expect to be showing up in diplomatic envoys from Manticore and the GA to a lot of the League members (other than Earth) and to a lot of the otherwise non-alligned systems or multi-system Star Nations. It will be slow because Manticore and company don't have that many diplomats. But it WILL be pointed out to all who will listen that Manticore and the members of the GA are NOT looking to take over systems and have no interest in destroying their SDFs (if any).

The long term problem is going to be what the RF is able to do in crafting the kind of alliance that will move known human space into the Alignment's agenda.

Brigade XO wrote:Couple of points here.

Snip
It is that lack of attacking the League that I expect to be showing up in diplomatic envoys from Manticore and the GA to a lot of the League members (other than Earth) and to a lot of the otherwise non-alligned systems or multi-system Star Nations. It will be slow because Manticore and company don't have that many diplomats. But it WILL be pointed out to all who will listen that Manticore and the members of the GA are NOT looking to take over systems and have no interest in destroying their SDFs (if any).

My bold:

The League and its minions consider the GA to be a belligerent, I can't see them accepting diplomatic missions unless it is to turn the diplomats over to OFS/FF for transportation to Sol as spies.

A suitable sized task force overhead is going to be required to protect the diplomatic mission, the mandarins will then spin the decisions by members deciding to accept terms with the GA as having been coerced at the equivalent of "gunpoint".

The mandarins don't want to accept that their days are numbered and will do anything to keep the status quo in their favour.


T&R
GJS

George J. Smith wrote:My bold:

The League and its minions consider the GA to be a belligerent, I can't see them accepting diplomatic missions unless it is to turn the diplomats over to OFS/FF for transportation to Sol as spies.

A suitable sized task force overhead is going to be required to protect the diplomatic mission, the mandarins will then spin the decisions by members deciding to accept terms with the GA as having been coerced at the equivalent of "gunpoint".

The mandarins don't want to accept that their days are numbered and will do anything to keep the status quo in their favour.


T&R
GJS

In the history of war and diplomacy, envoys have always been a workable and accepted technique between opponents.

Now, there is considerably more risk to the envoy than there is for an embassy in time of peace, or even a time of tension (witness the occasional lapses of politesse by, say, Spartan or Mongol rulers), but care is taken and arrangements are generally worked out for a few brave individuals to meet and do the needed talking. Witness Korea or Viet-Nam conflicts. Witness Pritchart's overture with Michelle.

dreamrider

doug941 wrote: That would work if you translate in or near Jovian space, if you translate near Uranus, Neptune etc you're screwed, blued and tattooed. This is why I keep mentioning multiple shells. KZT's post about shipboard sensors would give a range of roughly 2.15 billion kilometers, drones would quite a bit less.

Manticore's system periphery platforms can detect incoming hyper signatures from light-days away, if my memory serves.