Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?

J6P wrote:Well, MWW's post is nicely in depth, but:

He has also stated that moving cargo's in system via counter grav(see pearl several pages back) is actually just as expensive than shipping intrasteller!

Take Grain as an Example:

1) Have to yank the grain out of its gravitational well,
2) Transfer to Hyper capable ship
3) and then ship for weeks/months intrastellerly.
4) Transfer again
5) Enter gravitational well.

He just got done saying shipping via counter grav in system is expensive!

As if a counter grav intersystem grain bulk cargo hauler, couldn't use its counter grav to reach exo altitudes where there is no atmospheric drag(Power/$$$ sucking) and then coast ballistic to its destination without the rig-a-marole of trans shipment 2 EXTRA TIMES and the delay time of weeks/months.

Both scenario shuttles use counter grav. Both use their counter grav the exact same amount. Actually one scenario could use it less as they do not have to go to LEO... One is far faster. One is far cheaper. I will let you sleuth's figure out which scenario is better.

PS. Grass grows everywhere. Any planet that can sustain a population, other than a VERY rare oddball like Grayson, will sustain grain production. Those over populated could have a problem as well. Those who are ecological reserves coulc have a problem as they refuse to provide for themselves and feel entitled to impose their values on someone elses planet so they can feel like they are not harming their own planet. So, sure, in a very rare instances there will be some grain being shipped.

SWM wrote:No, the bold part just says that Grayson will continue to sell ships to Manticore. It doesn't say anything about selling ships to anyone else.

Zakharra wrote: Grayson at least has a new customer to make ships for. The RoH. I can't imagine they wouldn't be allowed to sell modern freighters to the RoH to help build that star nation's merchant fleet. If everyone has been making warships, but not merchant ships, this would suggest a large market for merchant ships since any losses in the merchant marine were not being easily replaced. Every slip that can build a merchant ship can technically do the same with a warship. I'd think Grayson is making money hand over fist by making merchant ships and being a local supplier.

Of course some Manty corps might be making merchant ships too. The Hauptman corp might be, I'm not sure, but I know they do make warships. They built Torch's frigates I believe. Either way, making merchant ships has to be earning those people a pretty penny for the time being.

hanuman wrote:

SWM wrote:No, the bold part just says that Grayson will continue to sell ships to Manticore. It doesn't say anything about selling ships to anyone else.

Which part of the phrase "Manticoran shipbuilding industry's network" do you not get? When talking about a 'network' in terms of a specific industry, we're talking about not only the manufacturers, but also the distributors AND the customers.

So yes, that word "network" does in fact imply that Grayson is selling her ships to Manticore's regular network of customers, not just to Manticore.

Zakharra wrote: Grayson at least has a new customer to make ships for. The RoH. I can't imagine they wouldn't be allowed to sell modern freighters to the RoH to help build that star nation's merchant fleet. If everyone has been making warships, but not merchant ships, this would suggest a large market for merchant ships since any losses in the merchant marine were not being easily replaced. Every slip that can build a merchant ship can technically do the same with a warship. I'd think Grayson is making money hand over fist by making merchant ships and being a local supplier.

kzt wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Grayson at least has a new customer to make ships for. The RoH. I can't imagine they wouldn't be allowed to sell modern freighters to the RoH to help build that star nation's merchant fleet. If everyone has been making warships, but not merchant ships, this would suggest a large market for merchant ships since any losses in the merchant marine were not being easily replaced. Every slip that can build a merchant ship can technically do the same with a warship. I'd think Grayson is making money hand over fist by making merchant ships and being a local supplier.

No, the RoH has a LOT of ship construction facilities, while Grayson currently has NONE. Once the huge military construction boom is over in the not too distance future, what would you expect they will do with those shipyards and shipyard workers? I'd suggest that they will build merchant shipping instead of paying Grayson to build merchant shipping while also paying unemployment costs for all their shipyard workers.

runsforcelery wrote:Excuse me, but where the hell did I say anything of the sort? To the best of my knowledge I have NEVER said ANYWHERE that interstellar shipping is cheaper than in-system shipping. If I have, then I was completely in error and I would very much like to see the text in which I said it! What I have said (repeatedly) is that aside from opportunity cost lost to time spent in transit and the costs of running the ship for a longer period between destinations (which are mainly personnel related, which helps to explain the desire for small crews on Manty vessels), interstellar shipping is no more expensive than in-system shipping. There are, obviously, greater start up costs, since the sublight in-system trader doesn't need alpha nodes or a hyper generator, but my preceding statement is essentially correct.

Now, where did I say anything to the contrary, please?

More Than Honor: The Universe of Honor Harrington wrote:Transport of interplanetary or interstellar cargoes is actually cheaper than surface or atmospheric transportation (even with countergrav transporters), though even at 1,200 c (the speed of an average bulk carrier) hauling a cargo 300 light-years takes 2.4 months. It is thus possible to transport even such bulk items as raw ore or food stuffs profitably over interstellar distances.

Jonathan_S wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Excuse me, but where the hell did I say anything of the sort? To the best of my knowledge I have NEVER said ANYWHERE that interstellar shipping is cheaper than in-system shipping. If I have, then I was completely in error and I would very much like to see the text in which I said it! What I have said (repeatedly) is that aside from opportunity cost lost to time spent in transit and the costs of running the ship for a longer period between destinations (which are mainly personnel related, which helps to explain the desire for small crews on Manty vessels), interstellar shipping is no more expensive than in-system shipping. There are, obviously, greater start up costs, since the sublight in-system trader doesn't need alpha nodes or a hyper generator, but my preceding statement is essentially correct.

Now, where did I say anything to the contrary, please?

The closest I can remember is a bit in More Than Honor which compared interstellar shipping to intraplanetary shipping.

More Than Honor: The Universe of Honor Harrington wrote:Transport of interplanetary or interstellar cargoes is actually cheaper than surface or atmospheric transportation (even with countergrav transporters), though even at 1,200 c (the speed of an average bulk carrier) hauling a cargo 300 light-years takes 2.4 months. It is thus possible to transport even such bulk items as raw ore or food stuffs profitably over interstellar distances.

But quote that doesn't say anything about in-system shipping, which mechanically is very similar to intersteller shipping except that the ship doesn't have to go as far and needn't be equipped with alpha nodes or a hyper generator.

Although unless you assume that atmospheric counter grav shipping is less point to point (for example needs to make a lot of stops to gather and/or distributed the cargo) I'm not sure how a interstellar cargo can be transported cheaper than that same cargo across the face of a planet. (Since you could use the exact same countergrav cargo shuttles to move it around as you'd use to lift it to the freighter)

SWM wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But quote that doesn't say anything about in-system shipping, which mechanically is very similar to intersteller shipping except that the ship doesn't have to go as far and needn't be equipped with alpha nodes or a hyper generator.

Although unless you assume that atmospheric counter grav shipping is less point to point (for example needs to make a lot of stops to gather and/or distributed the cargo) I'm not sure how a interstellar cargo can be transported cheaper than that same cargo across the face of a planet. (Since you could use the exact same countergrav cargo shuttles to move it around as you'd use to lift it to the freighter)

Actually, it does mention in-system shipping. Read it again. It is comparing "interplanetary and interstellar" shipping to "surface or atmospheric" shipping. Interplanetary means in-system. The conclusion is that interplanetary is comparable to interstellar and both are cheaper than moving things around on a planet. Exactly as RFC posted.

Note that the text doesn't discuss costs of moving things from planet to orbit or back, though. But that is also described elsewhere as fairly cheap, due to contragrav.

SWM wrote:Actually, it does mention in-system shipping. Read it again. It is comparing "interplanetary and interstellar" shipping to "surface or atmospheric" shipping. Interplanetary means in-system. The conclusion is that interplanetary is comparable to interstellar and both are cheaper than moving things around on a planet. Exactly as RFC posted.

Note that the text doesn't discuss costs of moving things from planet to orbit or back, though. But that is also described elsewhere as fairly cheap, due to contragrav.