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New Honorverse renders uploaded

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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:35 am

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BuNine

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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
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Just a heads up. You're not going to get all the answers you want, and the ones you *do* get, you're probably not going to be happy with, as it will offend your sense of "realism".

You've been warned. :mrgreen:

Carl wrote:Okay, several things raised in this thread over it's life i'd like to address.

1. Grav drivers in missile tubes and structural issues raised where an area i wanted to address.

First and foremost even with structural material a thousand times stronger than modern steels and a 10KM grav tunnel a Sagi-C would snap in half firing just one missile tube. The recoil is just that extreme. So the issues a split design missile tube might represent aren't really an issue by comparison.

Fortunately Missile tubes aren't the only thing that has this issue. Pulsar weapons fire Pulsar dart's, but we saw Solid shot used all the way back in Basilisk Station. And the effects are way beyond what 5.56 can do, and probably beyond even 7.62 with frangible ammo. Even with a 2KPS firing velocity the KE and especially momentum requirements to do that kind of damage basically dictate a similar weight dart to a 5.56 round at the minimum, maybe more, (though it would still probably be less than a 7.62 at a guess, and probably no heavier than a 5.56 once you include brass and powder charge, plus mag weight savings. At that kind of mass the accelleration force required starts to get very extreme to hit 2KPS. For an M16 length barrel you'd be comfortably beating out the average recoil force of an M16, and even that of the higher caliber, longer barreled M240. Go down to an M14 style Barrel and it gets even worse.

Given that Pulsar's have if anything been shown to have much lighter recoil than modern weapons, (in fact i can't recall pulsar's ever being depicted with measurable recoil), i'd say it's a fair bet that the "equal and opposite reaction" that newtons third law dictates is occur as non-physical force. I.e. feedback in the grav driver energy systems.

This also suggests firing a broadside won't punt the ship sideways at a couple of hundred m/s.


1) Pulsers, not pulsars. A pulsar is a rapidly spinning collapsed star. ;)

2)The first rule about recoil in the Honorverse is that you don't talk about recoil in the Honorverse. Although I admit I'm intrigued by your "feedback" thought. Sounds sort of like you're talking about using the it similar to how automatics and semi-autos use the recoil to actuate the slide, hammer, etc.


Carl wrote:2. Regarding the Keyholes. Given that they'd probably be targeted at energy range, Have no armor to protect them from even simple shrapnel at energy range, and modern combat doctrine has hardened towards missile combat which gives more reaction time to surprise attacks, i have to ask why the thing needs to be kept recessed. It probably does have some minor advantage's, particularly in not blocking LoS at extreme angles for certain sensor systems. But i'd think at least in the Aggie's case that mounting them in a dedicated external cradle would be better than making a mess of the internal's that way on a design allready light on armor and the like. Cutthroat allready provides a valid example here to inspire someone to think that way...


I would imagine (we haven't really discussed it in BuNine) that KH still has a bit of armor - not much, but some - just for protection against the kind of shrapnel you refer to. As for protection at energy range, well my thoughts are that if you allow an enemy ship into energy range, you've screwed up somewhere.

I realize that it's possible to get into energy range (we've seen it enough in the books), but I also think that by the time ships are at energy range, the KH would have been toast long ago anyway.

As for why it's recessed, it has to do with impeller drive and wedge physics, I suppose. One of the reasons there's a taper at either end of an impeller drive ship is because of the way the wedge comes up. Note that there's almost nothing that extends above the surface of the taper, and if there is, it's very flat. I believe that when a wedge starts to come up, it angles along the hull somewhat, following the angle of the taper.

Edit: Also what The E said. I forgot about the compensator field, even though there have been discussions on *that* before.

Recessing the KH platform would keep it out of the way of that wedge startup field. There have been some discussions about this previously here and at Baen's Bar, and TBH, there's never been a satisfactory answer for everything. Especially with regards to the Aggie, because it breaks a lot of the supposed "rules" of things extending too far beyond the hull surface and the need for no obstructions on the non-hammerhead side of the impeller nodes.

But then, so does a pinnace.

Carl wrote:3. That image of the after hammerhead, do you think you could yank up your pod design and place one in front of one of the missile door, those doors look to be as wide as they are tall whilst your pods are noticeably thinner in one dimension than the other.


Not sure what you mean. The pod bay hatches match the shape of the pods, except they are larger by one meter or so for clearance

Carl wrote:Of course Aggie and co where probably designed with the old style round pods in mind which would have required that kind of release door and all the issues it creates in terms of rail layout and how that feeds into internal layout. Which is quite different from how i imagined it as well tbh. Then again i had the boat bays figured differently.


Again, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "old style round pods". Pods have always been trapezoidal in shape, although the older versions, as depicted by Russ Isler in the earlier books, were much thicker than the flat pack pods shown in the Aggie renders.

As for how you imagined the rail layout and such, I'm sure there are quite a few ways to do it, some more complicated or less complicated than the way I did it. I'm not an engineer, although I suppose you could say I know enough to be dangerous. What I *do* end up trying to do is design something that *could* work. Whether it's the best method or not, I have no idea, but if I ever get around to making the animation showing pod bay operations, you'll see that it *could* work, based on assumptions of how things work *in the Honorverse*.

Carl wrote:4. Talking of boat bay's, I've noticed their on the underside, i always had the impression from the text they where side mounted, have i missed something in the text or did the great re-sizing I've heard about require a change in that?


We had some discussion on this as well a couple years ago when I first posted my pinnace renders. Pretty much, they've always been under the ship, open to space. Otherwise, one wouldn't need a boarding tube. Maybe David never specifically stated it, but ever since I first read the books, I always had the impression that the bays were on the bottom. It was nice to see that confirmed with the art of the later books, and then reconfirmed once I was invited into BuNine.

That said, the aforementioned discussion on pinnaces ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4357&p=100446&hilit=Condor+Pinnace#p100446 ) also brought up the boat bays on the Tepes, which give the impression of being exactly how you envisioned all boat bays. I'll leave the details to the thread I linked - it's only four pages.

Carl wrote:5. Talking of the Sagi-C's again, there's an offhand comment in At All Costs that mentioned Mantie cruisers firing rolled on their side, and the Sagi-C's are supposed to be able to fire both broadsides together, but without keyhole i don't see how that can work, was that ever explained?

Think that's all for now.


Well, *every* modern Manty ship can launch missiles while rolled - that's the "off-bore" capability that's new, which is why on the newer ships I've rendered, there are no CM tubes on the hammerheads, and why the Roland has all its missile tubes in the hammerheads (except CM tubes). Keyhole is not required for off-bore firing.

What Keyhole *is* required for is updated targeting info *while* rolled. Non-KH-equipped ships need to roll back "level" to continue updating targeting info to their missiles, unless another ship is relaying targeting info for them.

The best advice I can give you right now when reading the Honorverse books is that while someday it *may* be possible to do some of what's depicted in the books, and that Weber tries for realism, there's going to be areas where it breaks down and doesn't fit with known physics. The advice? Live with it, ignore it, or stop reading the books.

I admit, that sounds very sarcastic, or even condescending, but really, that's all you can do. The series is too far along now for Weber to change anything he's written. At least The Great Resizing happened early on in the series and by just not mentioning ship dimensions anymore, he could retcon that easily enough. <shrug> OTOH, BuNine is *trying* to come up with plausible ways to explain or reconcile what he has written with real-world physics/engineering/design, etc. Whether we're successful or not remains to be seen, but I'd like to think we *are* succeeding, in part.

The thing to remember, though, is that whether it's realistic or not, the rules of physics and engineering (and design, for that matter - note how similar all the ships are, no matter who builds them) in the Honorverse are *consistent* (mostly - see the aforementioned Aggie and pinnace vs. impeller nodes subject). How often do you find that level of consistency in a science fiction series?
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:56 am

Jonathan_S
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Posts: 5364
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MaxxQ wrote:
Carl wrote:2. Regarding the Keyholes. Given that they'd probably be targeted at energy range, Have no armor to protect them from even simple shrapnel at energy range, and modern combat doctrine has hardened towards missile combat which gives more reaction time to surprise attacks, i have to ask why the thing needs to be kept recessed. It probably does have some minor advantage's, particularly in not blocking LoS at extreme angles for certain sensor systems. But i'd think at least in the Aggie's case that mounting them in a dedicated external cradle would be better than making a mess of the internal's that way on a design allready light on armor and the like. Cutthroat allready provides a valid example here to inspire someone to think that way...


I would imagine (we haven't really discussed it in BuNine) that KH still has a bit of armor - not much, but some - just for protection against the kind of shrapnel you refer to. As for protection at energy range, well my thoughts are that if you allow an enemy ship into energy range, you've screwed up somewhere.

I realize that it's possible to get into energy range (we've seen it enough in the books), but I also think that by the time ships are at energy range, the KH would have been toast long ago anyway.

As for why it's recessed, it has to do with impeller drive and wedge physics, I suppose. One of the reasons there's a taper at either end of an impeller drive ship is because of the way the wedge comes up. Note that there's almost nothing that extends above the surface of the taper, and if there is, it's very flat. I believe that when a wedge starts to come up, it angles along the hull somewhat, following the angle of the taper.

Edit: Also what The E said. I forgot about the compensator field, even though there have been discussions on *that* before.

Recessing the KH platform would keep it out of the way of that wedge startup field. There have been some discussions about this previously here and at Baen's Bar, and TBH, there's never been a satisfactory answer for everything. Especially with regards to the Aggie, because it breaks a lot of the supposed "rules" of things extending too far beyond the hull surface and the need for no obstructions on the non-hammerhead side of the impeller nodes.

But then, so does a pinnace.
But a pinnace (and a fort) have only a single impeller ring - using a single pure-Beta (or beta squared) ring doesn't impose the kind of geometry limitations that the double ring a starship carries does.

That's why the pinnaces wings (for example) aren't problems during it's wedge startup and why forts don't have to have the double-tapered spindle shape of warships.

(Now why that's the case, I've no idea. Pretty much all wedge physics is "because RFC said so" :D. But he's been quite consistent about it. Anyway this is just that that's what I've gotten from RFC's posts over the years)
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:19 am

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Jonathan_S wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:I would imagine (we haven't really discussed it in BuNine) that KH still has a bit of armor - not much, but some - just for protection against the kind of shrapnel you refer to. As for protection at energy range, well my thoughts are that if you allow an enemy ship into energy range, you've screwed up somewhere.

I realize that it's possible to get into energy range (we've seen it enough in the books), but I also think that by the time ships are at energy range, the KH would have been toast long ago anyway.

As for why it's recessed, it has to do with impeller drive and wedge physics, I suppose. One of the reasons there's a taper at either end of an impeller drive ship is because of the way the wedge comes up. Note that there's almost nothing that extends above the surface of the taper, and if there is, it's very flat. I believe that when a wedge starts to come up, it angles along the hull somewhat, following the angle of the taper.

Edit: Also what The E said. I forgot about the compensator field, even though there have been discussions on *that* before.

Recessing the KH platform would keep it out of the way of that wedge startup field. There have been some discussions about this previously here and at Baen's Bar, and TBH, there's never been a satisfactory answer for everything. Especially with regards to the Aggie, because it breaks a lot of the supposed "rules" of things extending too far beyond the hull surface and the need for no obstructions on the non-hammerhead side of the impeller nodes.

But then, so does a pinnace.
But a pinnace (and a fort) have only a single impeller ring - using a single pure-Beta (or beta squared) ring doesn't impose the kind of geometry limitations that the double ring a starship carries does.

That's why the pinnaces wings (for example) aren't problems during it's wedge startup and why forts don't have to have the double-tapered spindle shape of warships.

(Now why that's the case, I've no idea. Pretty much all wedge physics is "because RFC said so" :D. But he's been quite consistent about it. Anyway this is just that that's what I've gotten from RFC's posts over the years)


Yup. That, too.

I really should stop posting less than an hour after I've gotten out of bed. I forget (or don't think of) things...
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:47 pm

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Last of the Aggie variants, the Duke of Cromarty. Plus a group shot of all the versions, along with their pod complement.

Note that the DoC has an extended main boat bay and a smaller second bay for all those diplomatic pinnaces, cutters, paper airplanes, and whatnot.

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -487153556
http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -487153566
http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -487154356

On to LACs now... :shock:
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:09 pm

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Wow... almost three years since I last posted here.

It's not necroposting if the thread starter does it. :mrgreen:

Anyway, I posted the following in someone else's thread, but thought it might be a good idea to bring this up again, since I may have something new soon-ish:

While I'm here, I figure I'll also mention something else, for anyone who might be interested. I'm sure everyone in the know has noticed that I haven't posted any new models in the last couple years. Well, as of last weekend, I've slowly been starting up modeling again, and while I probably won't have any new ships to post, I will, in the somewhat near future, be posting updated images of the SK Fearless.

Tom Pope and the rest of BuNine and I have been adding details to many of the details on the ship. We're also updating and changing some of the major bits, like the superstructure, the hammerheads, and so on. Basically, we're fleshing out things like the EW panels, weapons telemetry panels, RCS thrusters, escape pod hatch covers, the grav array, PDLC clusters and CM tubes, and so on. Basically, this means these areas will be a bit more interesting to look at, rather than looking fairly plain and boring as they currently are now. Overall, the ship will look the same, but will be more detailed. Once all of that is settled, it will all migrate to the other ships I currently have built, and only then will I move on to ships not built yet.

We've also been adding markings, and if I have my way, I'll be completely redesigning the missile tubes, as well as the magazines and loading sequence.

So, expect new uploads sometime in the next couple months (hopefully).

I've always said that even though the models are canon, they are subject to change...


Sorry if everyone thought I had posted something new. I just didn't want to start a new thread, and I found this 20-odd pages back.

Interestingly, I re-read the entire thread and decided to comment on a couple things. There was a two-page exchange between myself and nameless fly regarding running out weapons. At the time, my stance (understanding, rather) was that energy weapons would be run out, like age-of-sail cannon, and that missile tubes would remain inside the hull.

Yeah... no. That has now changed - the missile tubes now need to be run out as well. What that means is that, as mentioned above, now I have to redesign the missile tubes, magazines, and loading process. I've got a basic, but very workable concept going right now, although Tom Pope isn't completely happy with it... yet :mrgreen: Aside from all the detail stuff I'm working on, this will take up most of my time, especially if I can remember how to do an animation and maybe supercede my MK13 load/launch video linked below.

It also means that as I'm making these changes, one of the biggies is that the missiles will now (pending approval of the design) be breech loaded. In fact, as I mentioned to Tom earlier today, the new design actually more closely resembles the original design he showed me years ago.

sneaky mode

I *might* decide to do and post a render of some of the new detailed bits tonight. If I do, be aware that they are always subject to change, and should NOT be considered final.

/sneaky mode
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:26 am

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Okay. Here we go. See if anyone can guess what each item is/does. Only counts if you get them all correct, and all you win is a "well done". :mrgreen:

Not bothering to post this on my DA page. It will probably be the last thing I post until I have something more substantial to show, like a more or less finalized (we all know what THAT means) ship.

http://imgur.com/TqcbJB7
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by Fyrwulf   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:48 am

Fyrwulf
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:30 am

So I have to ask, what's with the exposed bridge? Isn't that in direct contravention of written canon?
===
Short of Evergreen explaining themselves directly to us on these boards, I no longer have any faith that they're committed to making a movie and related products that have any relevance to the Honorverse.
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by kzt   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:53 am

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Given that evergreen no longer exists I'd say you don't have to worry about it.
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by MaxxQ   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:39 am

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Fyrwulf wrote:So I have to ask, what's with the exposed bridge? Isn't that in direct contravention of written canon?


What exposed bridge? There are NO exposed bridges on any of my models, and they follow canon as well as we at BuNine can make them.

If you're referring to the "superstructure" on top of the ship(s), then it seems to me that you have fallen into typical science-fiction conventions (and I don't mean the ones that take place at hotels and/or convention centers). This isn't Star Wars or Star Trek, or Battlestar Galactica or Babylon 5.

Now for the explanation... again. That superstructure is whatever we decide it will be, EXCEPT a bridge. There's some minor textev about observation lounges or observatories on the top of the ship, although admittedly, they are not as expansive as I/we have depicted. We also needed something obvious to help distiguish top from bottom. David has always said that the upper sirface of the ship is usually covered with things like secondary comms, auxilary sensors, and so on, and that's part of what the superstructure is.

It could also contain a ballroom, a bowling alley, swimming pool, pool hall, casino, shooting range, or whatever else we end up deciding it will contain. While most of those are a bit ridiculous (and certainly expendable, if necessary), they give the idea that we can put SOMETHING there. Most likely, it may be a VIP lounge, or something similar, at least where the windows are. Aft of that will be the aforementioned secondary systems.

It's about the only concession we have made to break canon, and since we work directly with David, and he's seen and approved the general idea of the ship designs, I think we're safe in deciding to leave it there.

FYI, the actual bridges (main and aux) are located inside the main hull (as per textev, as you noted). In ships smaller than the Star Knight class CA, they are simply inside the main hull. Star Knight and larger contain an internal, armored "core hull" almost as heavily armored as the outer hull*. The bridges on those ships are within the core hull, along with the reactors, life support, and any other exceedingly critical components.

*Which is why I've had so much trouble fitting the missile launchers and magazines in the Star Knight, between the core hull and the outer hull. This has been causing me fits for years, but I think we have finally decided on a design that works (just a week or so ago), and fits, albeit with a bit of "pinching" on the core hull. The old rotary magazine design I had done before is gone, out, kaput, nyet, discarded.

As mentioned in my July 9 post, the missile tubes themselves now run out, rather than staying embedded inside the ship. Not the entire tube, but enough to get the idea across. Since it's been about four years and at least two versions of Blender since my last animation, I may not have anything like that soon, as I'll need to remember/update what I know about it. Who knows how long that will take, but hopefully, it'll make some people a little happier about loading, and I'm pretty positive that others will complain. s Because that's what forums are for, after all. /s
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: New Honorverse renders uploaded
Post by Fyrwulf   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:02 am

Fyrwulf
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:30 am

MaxxQ wrote:
Fyrwulf wrote:So I have to ask, what's with the exposed bridge? Isn't that in direct contravention of written canon?


What exposed bridge? There are NO exposed bridges on any of my models, and they follow canon as well as we at BuNine can make them.

If you're referring to the "superstructure" on top of the ship(s), then it seems to me that you have fallen into typical science-fiction conventions (and I don't mean the ones that take place at hotels and/or convention centers). This isn't Star Wars or Star Trek, or Battlestar Galactica or Babylon 5.

Now for the explanation... again. That superstructure is whatever we decide it will be, EXCEPT a bridge. There's some minor textev about observation lounges or observatories on the top of the ship, although admittedly, they are not as expansive as I/we have depicted. We also needed something obvious to help distiguish top from bottom. David has always said that the upper sirface of the ship is usually covered with things like secondary comms, auxilary sensors, and so on, and that's part of what the superstructure is.

It could also contain a ballroom, a bowling alley, swimming pool, pool hall, casino, shooting range, or whatever else we end up deciding it will contain. While most of those are a bit ridiculous (and certainly expendable, if necessary), they give the idea that we can put SOMETHING there. Most likely, it may be a VIP lounge, or something similar, at least where the windows are. Aft of that will be the aforementioned secondary systems.


Why shouldn't I think it was a bridge? I quite remember the argument we had about the ships in the Evergreen media and I was the one on the side of strict adherence to canon. Your position in BuNine notwithstanding, you pretty much burned any benefit of doubt with me.

As for what it could actually be used for, I supposed all of those are true, leaving aside the fact that it's a truly awful idea to have those massive windows there. The structure, whatever it is or could be, is larger than just about any mansion I can think of, which contravenes the lack of space aboard a warship that is mentioned throughout the series. Not to mention that textev is for small observation blisters not any bigger (and probably smaller) than a typical household bay window. And IIRC, there aren't all that many of them on any given ship.

FYI, the actual bridges (main and aux) are located inside the main hull (as per textev, as you noted). In ships smaller than the Star Knight class CA, they are simply inside the main hull. Star Knight and larger contain an internal, armored "core hull" almost as heavily armored as the outer hull*. The bridges on those ships are within the core hull, along with the reactors, life support, and any other exceedingly critical components.


Could you possibly be any more infuriatingly condescending? I've been reading the books for more than ten years, I *know* this.
===
Short of Evergreen explaining themselves directly to us on these boards, I no longer have any faith that they're committed to making a movie and related products that have any relevance to the Honorverse.
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