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Battle of Manticore

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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:07 pm

Tenshinai
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Weird Harold wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:Promotions are not based on seniority.


Yeah, they are. That's how Thomas Bachfish got to be an admiral even though he's been of half-pay forever.

Exceptional officers like Honor get promoted "out of the zone" and skip ranks, but the majority get promoted strictly through seniority.


You CAN get promoted due to seniority, but it is clearly NOT based on X service years equals promotion. Bachfish got promoted because despite the halfpay status they pretty much couldn´t avoid giving it any longer.

Had he been on active duty with neither good nor bad to his name he would have been promoted much earlier. Had he had lots of good to his service, earlier still.

And, before flag rank, a bad evaluation from a CO can totally kill any chance of future promotion, EVER.

So no, promotions are not BASED on seniority.
But seniority can force promotion under some circumstances, especially once flagrank is reached ( commodore and up ).
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:05 pm

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Umm...Bachfish was a captain of the list at the time War Maiden had her encounter with the privateer and was put on half-pay. Still he did make admiral based on seniority. So, there is more explanation of how the system works needed here. I thought seniority began to accrue with date of posting as list captain myself.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Vince   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:33 am

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n7axw wrote:Umm...Bachfish was a captain of the list at the time War Maiden had her encounter with the privateer and was put on half-pay. Still he did make admiral based on seniority. So, there is more explanation of how the system works needed here. I thought seniority began to accrue with date of posting as list captain myself.

Don

It begins with Captain of the List.
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 32 wrote:But the Kingdom had responded to Haven's claims in unambiguous fashion. Honor smiled and straightend her cuffs, brown eyes glinting as she savored the four gold rings of a Captain of the List. ***Snip***
Honor didn't mind. She looked down at the ribbon of the Manticore Cross, the Kingdom's second highest award for valor, gleaming blood-red against her space-black tunic. She had that to signify the Navy's and her Queen's opinion of her, just as she had her new ship, and she'd made list at last. Her feet were firmly on the ladder to flag rank, and no one--not Pavel Young, not the Republic of Haven, and not Countess New Kiev or Sir Edward Janacek--could ever knock her off it again.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by crewdude48   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:16 am

crewdude48
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I suspect that promotion from Captain of the List to Commodore works something like this.

Everybody who makes Captain of the List, off the bat, has esentualy zero, let's call them "promotion points." Spending time on active duty gains you some points, spending time on half pay gains you less points, but still some. Certain medals and awards gain you more points, with higher values for awards for valor or courage in the face of the enemy and things like that. An excellent officer evaluation would gain you more points.

Every (probably Manticoran) year, they look at all of the open positions for Commodore, and look through all of the Captains of the List. They decide if any of the junior CotLs should be promoted over the heads of their seniors, usually for outstanding service or "Needs of the Navy" or something of that sort. Then, once that is completed, they fill the remaining slots with the officers with the most promotion points.

I am sure that there are details, but I think that I got the gist of it correct. I suspect that it is rather difficult to make it to full Admiral on simple seniority, and all but impossible to get beyond , simply due to the small number of positions available at those levels.
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Uroboros   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:47 am

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crewdude48 wrote:I suspect that promotion from Captain of the List to Commodore works something like this.

Everybody who makes Captain of the List, off the bat, has esentualy zero, let's call them "promotion points." Spending time on active duty gains you some points, spending time on half pay gains you less points, but still some. Certain medals and awards gain you more points, with higher values for awards for valor or courage in the face of the enemy and things like that. An excellent officer evaluation would gain you more points.

Every (probably Manticoran) year, they look at all of the open positions for Commodore, and look through all of the Captains of the List. They decide if any of the junior CotLs should be promoted over the heads of their seniors, usually for outstanding service or "Needs of the Navy" or something of that sort. Then, once that is completed, they fill the remaining slots with the officers with the most promotion points.

I am sure that there are details, but I think that I got the gist of it correct. I suspect that it is rather difficult to make it to full Admiral on simple seniority, and all but impossible to get beyond , simply due to the small number of positions available at those levels.


Seems like you would need a whole division of paper pushers just to work that system. It's probably just seniority. You accrue seniority on active duty, and half as much on reserve. Keep it simple.

Yes, people are promoted "out of the zone" based either on merit or on availability. For example, Honor was promoted to full Admiral from Commodore based (mostly!) on merit, while Zavala will likely be promoted to Commodore to fill the spot left when Commodore Chatterjee died. Mike, as well, was promoted way out of the zone based on needs at the time. There was literally no one else they could send who they felt was competent enough or experienced enough.

But that doesn't mean you need an army of people assigning and subtracting "points."
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:57 am

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Uroboros wrote:
crewdude48 wrote:I suspect that promotion from Captain of the List to Commodore works something like this....


Seems like you would need a whole division of paper pushers just to work that system. It's probably just seniority. You accrue seniority on active duty, and half as much on reserve. Keep it simple.

...

But that doesn't mean you need an army of people assigning and subtracting "points."


Crewdude's description is very similar to the way promotions were computed in the USAF when I retired. In the USAF system, you got points for seniority (Time-in-grade and Time-in-service,) points for promotion fitness test scores, and points for Fitness Reports filed by your reporting official. Eventually seniority would overwhelm even the lowest reports and test scores. (Except for a maximum time-in-grade limitation for each rank.)

The RMN doesn't seem to follow that r/w example very closely, but the accrual of "seniority points" does seem to be a part of the RMN system.
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:50 am

runsforcelery
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Weird Harold wrote:
Crewdude's description is very similar to the way promotions were computed in the USAF when I retired. In the USAF system, you got points for seniority (Time-in-grade and Time-in-service,) points for promotion fitness test scores, and points for Fitness Reports filed by your reporting official. Eventually seniority would overwhelm even the lowest reports and test scores. (Except for a maximum time-in-grade limitation for each rank.)

The RMN doesn't seem to follow that r/w example very closely, but the accrual of "seniority points" does seem to be a part of the RMN system.


Not exactly.

You guys should remember that for all the RMN's current formidable reputation, it started out very small and was designed from the ground up by amateurs for a pre-prolong society. This means they didn't necessarily come up with the ideal solution to the nuts-and-bolts problems any military organization encounters.

Essentially, the system is purely seniority based except that simple seniority can never get an officer onto the list. From midshipman through ensign all the way to Captain (JG), you are promoted on the basis of time in grade and completion of the appropriate training programs and duty slots. That is, there are certain academic and experiential requirements for each specialization and there are also academic and experiential requirements common to every service specialization. You are promoted when you've spent enough time in grade if you have completed the appropriate schooling and duty assignments to qualify you within your specialization and/or general service. If you haven't completed the training and duty assignments when seniority is calculated each year, you are passed over for promotion that year. For the most part, there's no pressure for a policy of "up or out." That is, someone like a Mercedes Brigham, who never caught the eye of someone who made a business of pushing her career but who was supremely competent at her current duties and level of responsibility, could stay there almost indefinitely. In fact, such an officer was regarded as extremely valuable, much as any officer in his right mind recognizes the value of a supremely competent senior noncom who could seek an officer's commission if he wanted one but chooses not to.

From the earliest days of the Navy, however, officer evaluations could affect the equation. Negative evaluations couldn't deprive you of seniority, but they definitely could affect who got which duty assignments or admission to which training slots (or the Crusher) as they became available. And if you were passed over for the duty assignment or training you required for promotion, you were denied promotion. In addition, a negative evaluation — one which concluded that you were not adequately discharging your responsibilities at your current rank — triggered an Officer's Review Panel which could conclude that you needed to be placed on half-pay and kept there. (See below) Positive evaluations, on the other hand, could legally be taken into consideration when examining an officer's training and experience jacket. If they were glowing enough, BuPers was allowed to grant waivers for items which hadn't been checked off on the understanding that they would be made up as rapidly as possible.

Once an officer makes Captain of the List, there are no more specified classes or duty slots which must be checked off for promotion. If you live long enough, you will make flag rank, promoted on the basis of simple seniority over everyone junior to you.

Officers --- both above the list and below it --- can be promoted for reasons other than simple seniority, however. They can be promoted "out of the zone" at any time based on demonstrated competency and/or "the requirements of the service." Officers so promoted "leapfrog" the seniority system, which is how an officer like Honor Harrington winds up at her current astronomic rank despite the fact that there are hundreds or even thousands of officers who were senior to Captain Harrington but are now extremely junior to Fleet Admiral Alexander-Harrington. Historically, it was also how an officer with highly placed friends/patrons got promoted out of the zone whether or not he actually merited that promotion. (Edward Janacek and Elvis Santino, anyone?)

An officer promoted out of the zone may or may not have completed all of the required training and duty assignments for his new rank, but in those cases a waiver is automatically granted and the Navy (in peacetime) makes certain that the opportunity to rectify the lack is made available to the officer as soon as possible, "consonant to the needs of the service". In wartime, when demonstrated competence is the most precious commodity a navy has and the manpower requirements of its rapid expansion demand it, a lot of peacetime promotion regulations are discarded (legally; there's a specific provision for doing so). Under those circumstances, the "check the boxes" business goes by the board, with the understanding that officers whose wartime duties prevent them from filling all the holes in their formal military education will probably "tidy up" once the shooting stops.

Obviously, there are ample opportunities for abuse in the system, which was one of the problems before Roger Winton began the overhaul of the Navy which — in addition to the R&D programs he established — took on the practice of political patronage in the Navy's promotions head on. This was still a significant problem during Honor's early career; it became steadily less of one between the time she graduated from Saganami Island and the events in On Basilisk Station.

In addition, the system also means — especially with the advent of Prolong — that the Navy is likely to find itself lumbered with a whole bunch of flag officers who really shouldn't be trusted with a lemonade stand, much less a fleet command. That, however, is where the half-pay system comes in. The mere fact that an officer holds a given rank doesn't mean that he'll be employed. Officers can be put on half-pay for a lot of really bad reasons — as happened to Hamish Alexander and Edward Janacek's other enemies within the officer corps — but they can also be put there as a way to keep them out of mischief and from breaking some of the Queen's ships. So the entire time Thomas Bachfisch was on half-pay, he was continuing to accrue seniority (just as if he'd still been on active duty) and was routinely promoted as that seniority accrued. The half-pay system amounted in some ways to a pension system for incompetents; it also served as a way to maintain a reserve of qualified officers who might be more numerous than the service needed at any given moment. And while keeping a flag officer on half-pay was fairly pricey, keeping a lieutenant there was fairly cheap.

I'm not holding this up as an ideal system for managing a navy's personnel policies. It simply reflects the fashion in which the Royal Manticoran Navy organically grew from its starting point into the RMN of the 1850s with the People's Republic bearing down on it. The truth is, I deliberately designed it to be less than ideal, for a lot of reasons, only one of which was to produce something which would hinder the promotion of a supremely gifted young officer. A promotion system rife with patronage considerations provided exactly the tool which political enemies could and would use to hamper someone's career. In addition, however, it's often seeing how a military service succeeds despite its flaws that is most interesting. Of course, the fact that it does succeed often prevents people from realizing the flaws are there, doesn't it? ;)


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:08 pm

Weird Harold
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runsforcelery wrote:Not exactly.

<SNIP>

I'm not holding this up as an ideal system for managing a navy's personnel policies. It simply reflects the fashion in which the Royal Manticoran Navy organically grew from its starting point into the RMN of the 1850s with the People's Republic bearing down on it.


Thanks for the explanation. The part I quoted brings up the question of how the RHN (and its previous iterations) handle promotions and how the IAN, SLN and others work.

Textev suggests that patronage was a huge element of both Legislaturalist and People's Republic promotions, if different kinds of patronage, but how has Adm Theisman changed that?
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:52 pm

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I wonder if an officer's score in the Crusher would have any bearing on promotions. And performance in fleet exercises.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by kzt   » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:15 pm

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cthia wrote:I wonder if an officer's score in the Crusher would have any bearing on promotions. And performance in fleet exercises.

It would certainly have an impact on their officer eval report, which impacts promotion directly.
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