The Problem with Haven

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by runsforcelery » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:47 am
runsforcelery First Space Lord Posts: 2425 Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am Location: South Carolina	SCC wrote:I think people are over estimating just how many people where on the dole back in the bad days of the Republic. The highest level of of Dolist was 50%, and that was only on Haven itself. I don't know it was just for Novou Paris or the whole plant. The percentage of Dolists was highest in the Haven System and trended downward the farther from Haven one got. That is, the oldest daughter colonies approached Haven levels; the most recent conquests had effectively insignificant levels of Dolists. A big part of the PRH's problems was that the Legislaturalists had embraced a form of mercantilism in which all of the conquered territories were forced to trade only with the PRH's central core . . . and the central core's economy had become so unproductive that it was like hanging an anchor around the necks of the systems required to deal with it. Think old Soviet Union command economy factories on a Friday, but with the East Germans being required to purchase Soviet consumer goods rather than the other way around. Once Pierre was able to start getting Dolists of the BLS in the PRH's core and allowing the "captive economies" to trade with one another as well as the central core, many of the "captive economies" (especially those which had been captive for shorter periods of time) quickly recovered to pre-conquest levels, with all sorts of ramifications for the tax base. At the same time, the Dolists being shifted off the BLS were moving not simply into industrial areas directly related to fighting the war but also into "Building the Future!" areas of the infrastructure. That is, Pierre was making a conscious effort to revitalize the basic economic and industrial infrastructure as well as building the weapons needed to fight the war. And while he was doing that, the very significant percentage of the total economy of the PRH which had been monopolized by the Legislaturalists was being freed up and dumped back into the hopper. Even if all Pierre had achieved was to reduce the total population of Dolists by, say, 30%, it would have exerted an enormous multiplier effect on the economy by reducing the weight of government social expenditures, on the one hand, and increasing productivity in the most production-crippled star systems. "Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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by runsforcelery » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:47 am

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

SCC wrote:I think people are over estimating just how many people where on the dole back in the bad days of the Republic. The highest level of of Dolist was 50%, and that was only on Haven itself. I don't know it was just for Novou Paris or the whole plant.

The percentage of Dolists was highest in the Haven System and trended downward the farther from Haven one got. That is, the oldest daughter colonies approached Haven levels; the most recent conquests had effectively insignificant levels of Dolists. A big part of the PRH's problems was that the Legislaturalists had embraced a form of mercantilism in which all of the conquered territories were forced to trade only with the PRH's central core . . . and the central core's economy had become so unproductive that it was like hanging an anchor around the necks of the systems required to deal with it. Think old Soviet Union command economy factories on a Friday, but with the East Germans being required to purchase Soviet consumer goods rather than the other way around.

Once Pierre was able to start getting Dolists of the BLS in the PRH's core and allowing the "captive economies" to trade with one another as well as the central core, many of the "captive economies" (especially those which had been captive for shorter periods of time) quickly recovered to pre-conquest levels, with all sorts of ramifications for the tax base. At the same time, the Dolists being shifted off the BLS were moving not simply into industrial areas directly related to fighting the war but also into "Building the Future!" areas of the infrastructure. That is, Pierre was making a conscious effort to revitalize the basic economic and industrial infrastructure as well as building the weapons needed to fight the war. And while he was doing that, the very significant percentage of the total economy of the PRH which had been monopolized by the Legislaturalists was being freed up and dumped back into the hopper.

Even if all Pierre had achieved was to reduce the total population of Dolists by, say, 30%, it would have exerted an enormous multiplier effect on the economy by reducing the weight of government social expenditures, on the one hand, and increasing productivity in the most production-crippled star systems.

"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by Tenshinai » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:07 pm
Tenshinai Admiral Posts: 2893 Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm Location: Sweden	DarkEnigma wrote:(I still think its a stretch that even Shannon Foraker could have gathered the manufacturing infrastructure, technical expertise, and sheer engineering genius to achieve parity with Manticore in just a few years, but I'm willing to file that under suspension of disbelief and move on.) What parity? They are still grossly inferior in just about every way. Which is exactly why they have been forced to make up for it in whatever way works. They build ships slower, their missiles are less effective yet still noticeably larger, their software is "crap", their computer hardware clearly inferior, their average standard of living pathetic in comparison with Manticore... Etc. etc. etc.. DarkEnigma wrote:What of the other two issues though? Given Haven's track record (even under Pritchart), I can tell you that the last thing I would be doing if I were Elizabeth would be giving Haven Treecats and Apollo! I might be persuaded into a watchful truce while the threat of Mesa was dealt with but that would be the extent of it! And then you would loose. DarkEnigma wrote:Hell, you could even make a strong case that turnabout is fair play and sabotage or a sneak attack on Bolthole was warranted once its location had been discovered. That idea makes you look like a complete moron. The Malign would totally LOVE to have you in charge of any potential enemies. ##### lyonheart wrote:I think others have tried to make the point that the huge burden of the Dolists indirectly emphasizes the relative strength of the underlying economy in being able to cope at a better than minimum level, rather than simply collapsing, despite all the socialist garbage the legislaturists had hobbled and sabotaged it with. ... I suspect the restored constitution probably has several provisions preventing the re-occurrence of Dolism and the welfare state, something that reformed and now proudly independent Dolists probably strongly support. The dolist travesty has zero and nothing to do with socialism and with a "welfare state" only in how much it has been allowed to fail. It was effectively a way for the dictators to buy votes and make their rule look less dictatorial. ##### runsforcelery wrote:Think old Soviet Union command economy factories on a Friday, but with the East Germans being required to purchase Soviet consumer goods rather than the other way around. That made me laugh. A very neat description i think.
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by Tenshinai » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:07 pm

Tenshinai
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DarkEnigma wrote:(I still think its a stretch that even Shannon Foraker could have gathered the manufacturing infrastructure, technical expertise, and sheer engineering genius to achieve parity with Manticore in just a few years, but I'm willing to file that under suspension of disbelief and move on.)

What parity? They are still grossly inferior in just about every way. Which is exactly why they have been forced to make up for it in whatever way works.

They build ships slower, their missiles are less effective yet still noticeably larger, their software is "crap", their computer hardware clearly inferior, their average standard of living pathetic in comparison with Manticore...

Etc. etc. etc..

DarkEnigma wrote:What of the other two issues though? Given Haven's track record (even under Pritchart), I can tell you that the last thing I would be doing if I were Elizabeth would be giving Haven Treecats and Apollo! I might be persuaded into a watchful truce while the threat of Mesa was dealt with but that would be the extent of it!

And then you would loose.

DarkEnigma wrote:Hell, you could even make a strong case that turnabout is fair play and sabotage or a sneak attack on Bolthole was warranted once its location had been discovered.

That idea makes you look like a complete moron. The Malign would totally LOVE to have you in charge of any potential enemies.

#####

lyonheart wrote:I think others have tried to make the point that the huge burden of the Dolists indirectly emphasizes the relative strength of the underlying economy in being able to cope at a better than minimum level, rather than simply collapsing, despite all the socialist garbage the legislaturists had hobbled and sabotaged it with.

...

I suspect the restored constitution probably has several provisions preventing the re-occurrence of Dolism and the welfare state, something that reformed and now proudly independent Dolists probably strongly support.

The dolist travesty has zero and nothing to do with socialism and with a "welfare state" only in how much it has been allowed to fail.

It was effectively a way for the dictators to buy votes and make their rule look less dictatorial.

#####

runsforcelery wrote:Think old Soviet Union command economy factories on a Friday, but with the East Germans being required to purchase Soviet consumer goods rather than the other way around.

That made me laugh. A very neat description i think.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by cthia » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:25 pm
cthia Fleet Admiral Posts: 14951 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm	DarkEnigma wrote: We are told through the early novels that Haven had an intractable problem with the institutionalized laziness of the Dolists: masses of people who have grown to expect and demand pay though they do nothing. In fact it was the economic pressure of the Dolist class which forced Haven to begin swallowing up its neighbors (which ironically only created more Dolists). Given this, how are we to believe that that fundamental flaw in Haven’s economy is not still at work? Should not Haven’s economy still be quite fragile? I realize that Rob Pierre began some modest economic reforms and presumably Pritchart has gone even further in that direction, but we are talking about repairing a systemically flawed system that has been in place for decades (centuries?). This is exacerbated by the fact that Haven has prolog. [snip] The same holds true for Haven. They have billions and billions of Dolists who have gotten accustomed to not working. Many have never worked at all. Changing the attitudes and habits of that many people is going to take time. Certainly longer, in my opinion, than the, what, 5 years? 10? since the reforms began. This means that Haven’s economy should still be weak, and the underlying pressures which forced it into conquest should still be simmering, which makes its sudden desire to end hostilities with Manticore somewhat suspect. Even if Pritchart and Theisman are genuinely for peace, surely there must be constituencies in the Congress or other influential places that still look at Manticore (and other systems) with greedy eyes. [snip] As I said before, Haven’s underlying economic fragility (not to mention the years of antipathy between the two nations) should create pockets (probably large ones) of anti-Manticore sentiment in its society, but what is even more troubling to me are Pritchart’s decisions during the High Ridge years. It is this exact kind of thinking (right or wrong) that was behind my 'Seeds of Assassination' thread. It is my feeling that the fundamental flaws of Haven is still so deeply rooted, that a severe strike by the MAlign, to decapitate Eloise and Elizabeth, would topple the Alliance, because of the probably significant core of constituents still driven by the 'Old Ways.' It just takes time for reforms to really permeate a population. Which leads me to my last point… The Empress Has No Clothes Given all of the above, and her personal enmity towards Haven for killing members of her family, I found Elizabeth’s actions (and inaction) during and immediately after the High Ridge years to be suspect. In fact, of the entire Honorverse story, I had the hardest time suspending my disbelief on this one issue. With Operation Buttercup, Manticore finally had Haven on the ropes and victory within reach. I somewhat understand why High Ridge and his cronies decided to accept Saint-Just’s offer of cease fire (although how he missed the political benefit his coalition could have garnered from being the ones to “won the war” and thus co-opt decades of Cromarty’s hard work is beyond me). Elizabeth’s acceptance of that decision however, strains credulity. Yes I understand that it would have set off a constitutional crisis. However, White Haven was weeks or perhaps a few months from being in Haven’s orbit. If Elizabeth had used her authority as commander in chief to order the continuation of Buttercup to its conclusion, then the decades-old threat of Haven would finally be ended and her star nation could deal with the fallout at its leisure in peace. She is a highly intelligent and savvy leader, so she couldn't have missed the import of this decision, and she has far to much integrity to put keeping her own position over the welfare of her star nation. How she could have let this opportunity to finally end the Havenite threat after being under its pall for decades slip away? In fact, I can’t remember a single time where Elizabeth uses her executive authority. She has often goaded, cajoled, and threatened, but I can’t remember a time where she countermanded Parliament even once. Perhaps that is simply because she and Cromarty were of a mind most of the time, but she would do well to remember that power unused is the same as having no power at all (see the current British royalty for reference. I often wonder what would happen there if the Queen decided to utilize her theoretical power after all this time). You are not alone in feeling this way. I join you. I simply thought the war was so close to being won that it was...unbelievably, even unforgivably negligent to not do any and everything under the sun up to and including schitting square bricks if need be, to bring the war to its conclusion. I feel that all the lives volunteered and sacrificed keeping Manticore's chestnuts out of the fire up to that point were disrespected. Too often, I've stated that to me, in so many cases, Elizabeth merely seemed like a figurehead. . Last edited by cthia on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by cthia » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:25 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

DarkEnigma wrote:
We are told through the early novels that Haven had an intractable problem with the institutionalized laziness of the Dolists: masses of people who have grown to expect and demand pay though they do nothing. In fact it was the economic pressure of the Dolist class which forced Haven to begin swallowing up its neighbors (which ironically only created more Dolists).

Given this, how are we to believe that that fundamental flaw in Haven’s economy is not still at work? Should not Haven’s economy still be quite fragile? I realize that Rob Pierre began some modest economic reforms and presumably Pritchart has gone even further in that direction, but we are talking about repairing a systemically flawed system that has been in place for decades (centuries?). This is exacerbated by the fact that Haven has prolog.

[snip]

The same holds true for Haven. They have billions and billions of Dolists who have gotten accustomed to not working. Many have never worked at all. Changing the attitudes and habits of that many people is going to take time. Certainly longer, in my opinion, than the, what, 5 years? 10? since the reforms began. This means that Haven’s economy should still be weak, and the underlying pressures which forced it into conquest should still be simmering, which makes its sudden desire to end hostilities with Manticore somewhat suspect. Even if Pritchart and Theisman are genuinely for peace, surely there must be constituencies in the Congress or other influential places that still look at Manticore (and other systems) with greedy eyes.

[snip]

As I said before, Haven’s underlying economic fragility (not to mention the years of antipathy between the two nations) should create pockets (probably large ones) of anti-Manticore sentiment in its society, but what is even more troubling to me are Pritchart’s decisions during the High Ridge years.

It is this exact kind of thinking (right or wrong) that was behind my 'Seeds of Assassination' thread. It is my feeling that the fundamental flaws of Haven is still so deeply rooted, that a severe strike by the MAlign, to decapitate Eloise and Elizabeth, would topple the Alliance, because of the probably significant core of constituents still driven by the 'Old Ways.' It just takes time for reforms to really permeate a population.

Which leads me to my last point…

The Empress Has No Clothes

Given all of the above, and her personal enmity towards Haven for killing members of her family, I found Elizabeth’s actions (and inaction) during and immediately after the High Ridge years to be suspect. In fact, of the entire Honorverse story, I had the hardest time suspending my disbelief on this one issue.

With Operation Buttercup, Manticore finally had Haven on the ropes and victory within reach. I somewhat understand why High Ridge and his cronies decided to accept Saint-Just’s offer of cease fire (although how he missed the political benefit his coalition could have garnered from being the ones to “won the war” and thus co-opt decades of Cromarty’s hard work is beyond me). Elizabeth’s acceptance of that decision however, strains credulity. Yes I understand that it would have set off a constitutional crisis. However, White Haven was weeks or perhaps a few months from being in Haven’s orbit. If Elizabeth had used her authority as commander in chief to order the continuation of Buttercup to its conclusion, then the decades-old threat of Haven would finally be ended and her star nation could deal with the fallout at its leisure in peace.

She is a highly intelligent and savvy leader, so she couldn't have missed the import of this decision, and she has far to much integrity to put keeping her own position over the welfare of her star nation. How she could have let this opportunity to finally end the Havenite threat after being under its pall for decades slip away?

In fact, I can’t remember a single time where Elizabeth uses her executive authority. She has often goaded, cajoled, and threatened, but I can’t remember a time where she countermanded Parliament even once. Perhaps that is simply because she and Cromarty were of a mind most of the time, but she would do well to remember that power unused is the same as having no power at all (see the current British royalty for reference. I often wonder what would happen there if the Queen decided to utilize her theoretical power after all this time).

You are not alone in feeling this way. I join you. I simply thought the war was so close to being won that it was...unbelievably, even unforgivably negligent to not do any and everything under the sun up to and including schitting square bricks if need be, to bring the war to its conclusion. I feel that all the lives volunteered and sacrificed keeping Manticore's chestnuts out of the fire up to that point were disrespected. Too often, I've stated that to me, in so many cases, Elizabeth merely seemed like a figurehead.

.

Last edited by cthia on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by DarkEnigma » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:37 pm
DarkEnigma Ensign Posts: 21 Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:23 pm Location: San Francisco	Tenshinai wrote: DarkEnigma wrote:(I still think its a stretch that even Shannon Foraker could have gathered the manufacturing infrastructure, technical expertise, and sheer engineering genius to achieve parity with Manticore in just a few years, but I'm willing to file that under suspension of disbelief and move on.) What parity? They are still grossly inferior in just about every way. Which is exactly why they have been forced to make up for it in whatever way works. They build ships slower, their missiles are less effective yet still noticeably larger, their software is "crap", their computer hardware clearly inferior, their average standard of living pathetic in comparison with Manticore... Etc. etc. etc.. Um... The parity in which Lester Tourville swatted Home Fleet like an annoying fly and came a hair's-breadth from accepting Queen Elizabeth's unconditional surrender from Manticore orbit. That parity. It doesn't really matter if each individual missile or ship is inferior to their RMN counterpart. The fact remains that Haven went from completely helpless in the face of Eighth Fleet to nearly-won-the-war in a period of three or four years. (However, after reading http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/65/1 I have a much better appreciation for how this was accomplished. Thanks drothgery!) Tenshinai wrote: DarkEnigma wrote:What of the other two issues though? Given Haven's track record (even under Pritchart), I can tell you that the last thing I would be doing if I were Elizabeth would be giving Haven Treecats and Apollo! I might be persuaded into a watchful truce while the threat of Mesa was dealt with but that would be the extent of it! And then you would loose. DarkEnigma wrote:Hell, you could even make a strong case that turnabout is fair play and sabotage or a sneak attack on Bolthole was warranted once its location had been discovered. That idea makes you look like a complete moron. The Malign would totally LOVE to have you in charge of any potential enemies. Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this. I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth. Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)? I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record.
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by DarkEnigma » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:37 pm

DarkEnigma
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Location: San Francisco

Tenshinai wrote:
DarkEnigma wrote:(I still think its a stretch that even Shannon Foraker could have gathered the manufacturing infrastructure, technical expertise, and sheer engineering genius to achieve parity with Manticore in just a few years, but I'm willing to file that under suspension of disbelief and move on.)

What parity? They are still grossly inferior in just about every way. Which is exactly why they have been forced to make up for it in whatever way works.

They build ships slower, their missiles are less effective yet still noticeably larger, their software is "crap", their computer hardware clearly inferior, their average standard of living pathetic in comparison with Manticore...

Etc. etc. etc..

Um... The parity in which Lester Tourville swatted Home Fleet like an annoying fly and came a hair's-breadth from accepting Queen Elizabeth's unconditional surrender from Manticore orbit. That parity.

It doesn't really matter if each individual missile or ship is inferior to their RMN counterpart. The fact remains that Haven went from completely helpless in the face of Eighth Fleet to nearly-won-the-war in a period of three or four years. (However, after reading http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/65/1 I have a much better appreciation for how this was accomplished. Thanks drothgery!)

Tenshinai wrote:
DarkEnigma wrote:What of the other two issues though? Given Haven's track record (even under Pritchart), I can tell you that the last thing I would be doing if I were Elizabeth would be giving Haven Treecats and Apollo! I might be persuaded into a watchful truce while the threat of Mesa was dealt with but that would be the extent of it!

And then you would loose.

DarkEnigma wrote:Hell, you could even make a strong case that turnabout is fair play and sabotage or a sneak attack on Bolthole was warranted once its location had been discovered.

That idea makes you look like a complete moron. The Malign would totally LOVE to have you in charge of any potential enemies.

Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this.

I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth.

Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)?

I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by Roguevictory » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:49 pm
Roguevictory Captain of the List Posts: 419 Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:15 pm Location: Guthrie, Oklahoma, USA	So many people seem to forget that Elizabeth, like Honor, is paired with a living and very deadly lie detector.
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by Roguevictory » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:49 pm

Roguevictory
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So many people seem to forget that Elizabeth, like Honor, is paired with a living and very deadly lie detector.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by SWM » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:05 pm
SWM Fleet Admiral Posts: 5928 Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm Location: U.S. east coast	DarkEnigma wrote:Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this. I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth. Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)? I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record. I have points that may help. 1) Empress Elizabeth has never been one to blame one person for another's mistakes or misdeeds. Once a person demonstrates that she is not following in the footsteps of her predecessors, Elizabeth will not put personal blame or mistrust on that person. 2) Pritchart has demonstrated her own integrity. She came--in person!--to meet with Elizabeth with no strings attached. Pritchart has shown herself to be a kindred spirit to Elizabeth. In fact, they have become close personal friends, which is a very big deal for the Empress. 3) She has a treecat, who tells her to trust Pritchart. 4) Elizabeth trusts Honor implicitly as an advisor and friend. She sent Honor to negotiate with Haven, and trusts her reports and personal evaluation on the political situation and individuals. 5) Elizabeth has someone much better to hate--the Alignment. Giancola, the war, and some of the assassinations can now be blamed on the Alignment instead of Haven, in Elizabeth's mind. Going back to (1), she can no longer honestly blame Haven for as much as she used to. That has caused a complete re-evaluation of her causes to hate Haven, and she takes self-honesty very seriously. It is a major part of her own integrity. -------------------------------------------- Librarian: The Original Search Engine
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by SWM » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:05 pm

SWM
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DarkEnigma wrote:Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this.

I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth.

Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)?

I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record.

I have points that may help.

1) Empress Elizabeth has never been one to blame one person for another's mistakes or misdeeds. Once a person demonstrates that she is not following in the footsteps of her predecessors, Elizabeth will not put personal blame or mistrust on that person.

2) Pritchart has demonstrated her own integrity. She came--in person!--to meet with Elizabeth with no strings attached. Pritchart has shown herself to be a kindred spirit to Elizabeth. In fact, they have become close personal friends, which is a very big deal for the Empress.

3) She has a treecat, who tells her to trust Pritchart.

4) Elizabeth trusts Honor implicitly as an advisor and friend. She sent Honor to negotiate with Haven, and trusts her reports and personal evaluation on the political situation and individuals.

5) Elizabeth has someone much better to hate--the Alignment. Giancola, the war, and some of the assassinations can now be blamed on the Alignment instead of Haven, in Elizabeth's mind. Going back to (1), she can no longer honestly blame Haven for as much as she used to. That has caused a complete re-evaluation of her causes to hate Haven, and she takes self-honesty very seriously. It is a major part of her own integrity.

--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by roseandheather » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:15 pm
roseandheather Admiral Posts: 2056 Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm Location: Republic of Haven	SWM wrote: DarkEnigma wrote:Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this. I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth. Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)? I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record. I have points that may help. 1) Empress Elizabeth has never been one to blame one person for another's mistakes or misdeeds. Once a person demonstrates that she is not following in the footsteps of her predecessors, Elizabeth will not put personal blame or mistrust on that person. 2) Pritchart has demonstrated her own integrity. She came--in person!--to meet with Elizabeth with no strings attached. Pritchart has shown herself to be a kindred spirit to Elizabeth. In fact, they have become close personal friends, which is a very big deal for the Empress. 3) She has a treecat, who tells her to trust Pritchart. 4) Elizabeth trusts Honor implicitly as an advisor and friend. She sent Honor to negotiate with Haven, and trusts her reports and personal evaluation on the political situation and individuals. 5) Elizabeth has someone much better to hate--the Alignment. Giancola, the war, and some of the assassinations can now be blamed on the Alignment instead of Haven, in Elizabeth's mind. Going back to (1), she can no longer honestly blame Haven for as much as she used to. That has caused a complete re-evaluation of her causes to hate Haven, and she takes self-honesty very seriously. It is a major part of her own integrity. BINGO. I think what a lot of people miss about Elizabeth and the Grand Alliance is that Elizabeth's "stuffed and mounted" grudge by no means went away. She merely discovered that said grudge was directed at the wrong people - and she has never been stupid. As said grudge has now been appropriately redirected, Elizabeth is finally in a position to Do Something about getting revenge for her father, her uncle, her prime minister, and all of her Navy and Marines personnel who were killed in the wars Mesa engineered. Moreover, she has right at her elbow another head of state whose grudge - for killing her personnel, as well as the love of her life - has also been appropriately redirected, and the target of their anger is identical. No wonder she and Eloise are getting along like a house on fire - they want the same group of people dead. If nothing else, that was going to bond them together. Never mind that they're both very similar personalities with similar convictions - or that Eloise's treecat name is "Truth Seeker", for God's sake! Elizabeth's grudge didn't go anywhere. It's just pointed in a different direction - the right direction - and forging a relationship with Haven had to have been much easier for her without having to overcome that grudge. Instead, by forging that relationship with Haven, she is at the same time setting herself up to take out the real targets of her anger. The fact that she didn't know they were her real targets until a handful of days earlier doesn't matter. Source: personal experience with grudges getting redirected. ~*~ I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart. Javier & Eloise "You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by roseandheather » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:15 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

SWM wrote:
DarkEnigma wrote:Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this.

I understand the logic behind "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but I don't think it fully applies in this case. Yes, Haven and Manticore need to put aside their grievances to face a mutual threat in Mesa. But to just pretend that Grendelsbane or the Battle of Manticore or the assassinations or Arnold Giancola didn't happen is, IMHO, foolish of Elizabeth.

Also, as I've said before, the fall of the Legislaturalists and the CPS are still recent history and the Republic is young and fragile. Who's to say that yet another revolutionary movement won't put a pulser through Pritchart's head and take over (only now with the benefit of Manticoran national secrets and Treecats)?

I know that RFC has planned for this eventuality and I am guessing that Pritchart really is trustworthy and the new Republic experiment will in fact be a success. My point, however, is that, looking at it from Manticore's perspective and without benefit of that foreknowledge, Haven has yet to prove it is anything more than a hive of scum and villainy, and Elizabeth's haste in welcoming them to her bosom is unseemly given their track record.

I have points that may help.

1) Empress Elizabeth has never been one to blame one person for another's mistakes or misdeeds. Once a person demonstrates that she is not following in the footsteps of her predecessors, Elizabeth will not put personal blame or mistrust on that person.

2) Pritchart has demonstrated her own integrity. She came--in person!--to meet with Elizabeth with no strings attached. Pritchart has shown herself to be a kindred spirit to Elizabeth. In fact, they have become close personal friends, which is a very big deal for the Empress.

3) She has a treecat, who tells her to trust Pritchart.

4) Elizabeth trusts Honor implicitly as an advisor and friend. She sent Honor to negotiate with Haven, and trusts her reports and personal evaluation on the political situation and individuals.

5) Elizabeth has someone much better to hate--the Alignment. Giancola, the war, and some of the assassinations can now be blamed on the Alignment instead of Haven, in Elizabeth's mind. Going back to (1), she can no longer honestly blame Haven for as much as she used to. That has caused a complete re-evaluation of her causes to hate Haven, and she takes self-honesty very seriously. It is a major part of her own integrity.

BINGO.

I think what a lot of people miss about Elizabeth and the Grand Alliance is that Elizabeth's "stuffed and mounted" grudge by no means went away. She merely discovered that said grudge was directed at the wrong people - and she has never been stupid. As said grudge has now been appropriately redirected, Elizabeth is finally in a position to Do Something about getting revenge for her father, her uncle, her prime minister, and all of her Navy and Marines personnel who were killed in the wars Mesa engineered. Moreover, she has right at her elbow another head of state whose grudge - for killing her personnel, as well as the love of her life - has also been appropriately redirected, and the target of their anger is identical. No wonder she and Eloise are getting along like a house on fire - they want the same group of people dead. If nothing else, that was going to bond them together. Never mind that they're both very similar personalities with similar convictions - or that Eloise's treecat name is "Truth Seeker", for God's sake!

Elizabeth's grudge didn't go anywhere. It's just pointed in a different direction - the right direction - and forging a relationship with Haven had to have been much easier for her without having to overcome that grudge. Instead, by forging that relationship with Haven, she is at the same time setting herself up to take out the real targets of her anger. The fact that she didn't know they were her real targets until a handful of days earlier doesn't matter.

Source: personal experience with grudges getting redirected. :mrgreen:

~*~

I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by cthia » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:18 pm
cthia Fleet Admiral Posts: 14951 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm	DarkEnigma wrote: Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this. Indeed. However, this Haven is clearly not the Old Regime. My father used to say to us: Everyone deserves a second chance, if a second chance is deserved. The actions of Eloise clearly announced to Elizabeth that the spots of this leopard had changed. That was Eloise's intended message when she released Michelle Henke and suggested a prisoner exchange., when she showed up in Haven One in Manticore's Orbit, when she invited Honor who she knew would bring her furry lie detector to the summit, and when she brilliantly suggested an alliance. You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?' Also, the many actions of officer's like Giscard saving a Manticoran ship from pirates, Shannon Foraker risking all to save Honor, so many altruistic acts of Theisman. No, this leopard wasn't even from the same litter. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by cthia » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:18 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

DarkEnigma wrote:

Ad hominem attacks aside, can anyone explain to me why Haven is worthy of Manticore's trust? Whether under the Legislaturalists, the CPS, or the new Republic, Haven has time and time again shown by its actions a propensity for underhanded tactics. I have brought up several examples of this.

Indeed. However, this Haven is clearly not the Old Regime. My father used to say to us:

Everyone deserves a second chance, if a second chance is deserved.

The actions of Eloise clearly announced to Elizabeth that the spots of this leopard had changed. That was Eloise's intended message when she released Michelle Henke and suggested a prisoner exchange., when she showed up in Haven One in Manticore's Orbit, when she invited Honor who she knew would bring her furry lie detector to the summit, and when she brilliantly suggested an alliance.

You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?'

Also, the many actions of officer's like Giscard saving a Manticoran ship from pirates, Shannon Foraker risking all to save Honor, so many altruistic acts of Theisman. No, this leopard wasn't even from the same litter.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by DarkEnigma » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:42 pm
DarkEnigma Ensign Posts: 21 Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:23 pm Location: San Francisco	cthia wrote:You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?' Touché. I hadn't looked at it that way. I still maintain that Pritchart's authorization of Thunderbolt and Beatrice were born of greed or pride (good point Relax), and even though she may now be (verifiably) regretful of those decisions, she did make them and there is no reason to believe that, given similar circumstances, she wouldn't make them again (those decisions also cannot be explained away by "Mesan influence" either because, although Mesa was delighted to see Manticore and Haven once again fighting, they had no part in either one). That said, I suppose Elizabeth does have a moral responsibility to be the "bigger person," despite all Haven's provocations, if it will save Manticorans from needless deaths.
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by DarkEnigma » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:42 pm

DarkEnigma
Ensign

Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:23 pm
Location: San Francisco

cthia wrote:You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?'

Touché. I hadn't looked at it that way.

I still maintain that Pritchart's authorization of Thunderbolt and Beatrice were born of greed or pride (good point Relax), and even though she may now be (verifiably) regretful of those decisions, she did make them and there is no reason to believe that, given similar circumstances, she wouldn't make them again (those decisions also cannot be explained away by "Mesan influence" either because, although Mesa was delighted to see Manticore and Haven once again fighting, they had no part in either one).

That said, I suppose Elizabeth does have a moral responsibility to be the "bigger person," despite all Haven's provocations, if it will save Manticorans from needless deaths.

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Re: The Problem with Haven
by roseandheather » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:03 pm
roseandheather Admiral Posts: 2056 Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm Location: Republic of Haven	DarkEnigma wrote: cthia wrote:You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?' Touché. I hadn't looked at it that way. I still maintain that Pritchart's authorization of Thunderbolt and Beatrice were born of greed or pride (good point Relax), and even though she may now be (verifiably) regretful of those decisions, she did make them and there is no reason to believe that, given similar circumstances, she wouldn't make them again (those decisions also cannot be explained away by "Mesan influence" either because, although Mesa was delighted to see Manticore and Haven once again fighting, they had no part in either one). That said, I suppose Elizabeth does have a moral responsibility to be the "bigger person," despite all Haven's provocations, if it will save Manticorans from needless deaths. ...wow, you don't understand Eloise Pritchart at all, do you? No. Just... no. ~*~ I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart. Javier & Eloise "You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: The Problem with Haven

by roseandheather » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:03 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

DarkEnigma wrote:
cthia wrote:You also have to ask yourself, 'aren't the possible lives that will be saved also worthy of Elizabeth's trust?'

Touché. I hadn't looked at it that way.

I still maintain that Pritchart's authorization of Thunderbolt and Beatrice were born of greed or pride (good point Relax), and even though she may now be (verifiably) regretful of those decisions, she did make them and there is no reason to believe that, given similar circumstances, she wouldn't make them again (those decisions also cannot be explained away by "Mesan influence" either because, although Mesa was delighted to see Manticore and Haven once again fighting, they had no part in either one).

That said, I suppose Elizabeth does have a moral responsibility to be the "bigger person," despite all Haven's provocations, if it will save Manticorans from needless deaths.

...wow, you don't understand Eloise Pritchart at all, do you?

No. Just... no.

~*~

I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."

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