Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], ThinksMarkedly and 92 guests

The Problem with Haven

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Problem with Haven
Post by GregD   » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:18 pm

GregD
Commander

Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:29 pm

Zakharra wrote:
GregD wrote:For your first point: so what?

1: High Ridge already established that Star Nations can act unilaterally, no one not already his partisan is going to care that Grayson went around his back unilaterally.

2: 2 years into the cease-fire, Steadholder Harrington comes before the House of Lords, announcing that Grayson, Erewhon, and the rest of the worlds of the Alliance have negotiated a peace treaty with the Republic of Haven, said Treaty to go into effect in 6 months, or when Manticore signs, whichever comes first. She then plays a video from Queen Elizabeth saying that she's seen the terms of the treaty, finds it quite fair, and calls on Parliament to end the war with Haven. Then she reads the Treaty.

A: You really think Erewhon wouldn't sign on?
B: You really think Pritchard wouldn't agree to a fair treaty?
C: You really think the House of Lords will reject a Peace Treaty with Haven just because Grayson negotiated it?

You've got all the Crown Loyalists and Centrists supporting it. All you need are enough Independents and (people who would have become Cathy M's) New Liberals to get to a majority, and the war is over.

If Manticore stays at war because essentially every single Liberal in the Lords voted against a Peace Treaty, the Liberals would be utterly destroyed in the Commons for a generation. a Prolong generation.

Not going to happen. It passes, the war's over, all the wartime taxes are repealed, the government is forced to call an election, and after it's over all the San Martino Lords get to join.

Game over, High Ridge government.


As for your second point, go reread the beginning of War of Honor. Note how pissed Honor, and everyone else on her side, is about how long things are dragging on. Those people should have been willing to do anything they needed to do to cut short the corruption and disaster of the High Ridge government.

And Grayson negotiating a separate Peace Treaty does not spark a Manticorian Constitutional fight. The Queen "didn't do anything." This isn't the Queen's Treaty, it's Grayson's. Now, the Queen thinks it's a really good treaty, and hopes Parliament will ratify it quickly, but that's not a Constitutional problem.

Now, will anyone on the other side believe that? Of course not. Who cares? Elizabeth wants to strangle every single one of them with her own hands. Pissing them off mightily, when there's nothing they can do about it, and harming, if not completely destroying, all their plans in the bargain?

Priceless.


1. High Ridge was running in dangerous ground,m but since Manticore ran the Manticore Alliance, there was little other nations and people could do.

2. Steadholder Harrington would not have any authority to present anything to the House of Lords. It would have to be presented to the High Ridge government. As far as I know, Steadholder is not a rank that has any right to appear or present anything before the Manticoran House of Lords since it's not a Manticoran rank. If she did it as Duchess Harington, then she runs into the problem of going around the legal governments back, or doing it illegally. It's the same reasoning why Elizabeth couldn't do it. Legally the Prime Minister has to be the one to do stuff like that. The Manticore royalty is limited in what it could do and as long as High Ridge was still 'negotiating' with Haven, there was little she could do without breaking her own constitutional limitations. Hence the real possibility of provoking a constitutional crisis. A crisis that no one would know who the judges would rule for.

A. Possibly.
B. Possibly, but with severe reservations*.
C. Not a chance since it would have been done -outside- of established governmental bounds. It had to come through the High Ridge government to be legal (more or less). Honor doing an end run would be seen as the Queen and Honor (as Duchess Harrington) trying to sidestep or go beyond her constitutional boundaries. And as much as those two women might like to have done that, they respect the rule of law too much to do it, since if you bend the laws to do something like that once, you might do it again, and again and again. At what point do you say you can't bend/break the law just because it's in the way of what you want to do? It's a damned slippery slope to start down and they would have been on very thin ice if someone did that to them and they got angry and huffy about it. They did it, so they couldn't really complain if someone did it to them.

Grayson negotiating a treaty would break the Alliance because Grayson doesn't have that authority in the Alliance. High Ridge's mistakes were, if I remember right, of not informing the other members what he was doing. He just did it without consulting them. Grayson negotiating a peace treaty would be essentially doing the same thing.

It's nowhere near as easy and slamdunk as you're making it appear. There was by no means a guarantee that such a peace treaty would have sailed past the House of Lords if it had been presented for it to have succeeded, it would have had to have the government's stamp of approval.

* Her reservations would likely be that it wouldn't the official government negotiators that got the treaty. That would cast a large shadow of illegitimacy on the entire proceedings. It would be like the Secretary of the US Commerce Department bypassing the State Department to present the President with a negotiated treaty a nation the US would have been at war with; say China or Russia for some reason. It might be an option the President likes and supports, but it would not be an accepted venue to get said treaty because it didn't come through official channels, ie the State Department. That's not the function of the Commerce Department.


1: Grayson would be running in dangerous ground. But Since High Ridge has already pissed off everyone else in the Manticore Alliance, there's not a lot High Ridge can do about it.

2: Have you really forgot that Steadholder Harrington shares a body with Duchess Harrington, who most certainly can go to the Floor of the House of Lords and make a speech?

You know, a little speech that goes: "Hi folks, all of our allies have signed this Peace Treaty with Haven. We have six months to ratify it ourselves, failing which the Manticore Alliance will disappear because every single one of our Allies will be at peace with Haven."

C: Steadholder Harrington negotiated a Peace Treaty between her country (Grayson) and Haven. She shows up with the proper attestations from Grayson that she's qualified to make a Peace Treaty.

Duchess Harrington tells the House of Lords: here's a Peace Treaty. We can agree to it, or we can lose every ally we have. The Constitution and the law have both been fully honored.

Now, the only question is: will enough Liberal / Independent Lords go along to pass the Treaty? Will ANY of the people who became "New Liberals" refuse to vote for Peace? Why? Isn't that enough right there to give a victory?
Top
Re: The Problem with Haven
Post by Zakharra   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:19 am

Zakharra
Captain of the List

Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:50 pm

GregD wrote:1: Grayson would be running in dangerous ground. But Since High Ridge has already pissed off everyone else in the Manticore Alliance, there's not a lot High Ridge can do about it.

2: Have you really forgot that Steadholder Harrington shares a body with Duchess Harrington, who most certainly can go to the Floor of the House of Lords and make a speech?

You know, a little speech that goes: "Hi folks, all of our allies have signed this Peace Treaty with Haven. We have six months to ratify it ourselves, failing which the Manticore Alliance will disappear because every single one of our Allies will be at peace with Haven."

C: Steadholder Harrington negotiated a Peace Treaty between her country (Grayson) and Haven. She shows up with the proper attestations from Grayson that she's qualified to make a Peace Treaty.

Duchess Harrington tells the House of Lords: here's a Peace Treaty. We can agree to it, or we can lose every ally we have. The Constitution and the law have both been fully honored.

Now, the only question is: will enough Liberal / Independent Lords go along to pass the Treaty? Will ANY of the people who became "New Liberals" refuse to vote for Peace? Why? Isn't that enough right there to give a victory?



1. Since Manticore is footing the bill for most of the Alliance, that's what gave the High Ridge government the 'oomp' get away with it. None of the other nations had the clout, not even Grayson, to negotiate for the Manticore Alliance.

2. That's a end run that could and very possibly would backfire badly. Even though Steadholder Harrington shares the same body as Duchess Harrington, the Steadholder has no authority to speak before the House of Nobles. If Duchess Harrington did present Steadholder Harrington's 'negotiated' treaty before the HoL, that could be seen as a violation of law and protocols. There are procedures that they take very seriously and I can't see what you outline as being taken well by almost any of the nobles, even the ones that support such a treaty. That would lead to her being censured.

3. Doesn't work that way. I believe that Harrington is -very- careful to keep the Steadholder and Duchess personae separated so there is no conflict of interest despite them inhabiting the same body. The steadholder negotiating a treaty then presenting it as Duchess would be directly tying them together in a way that means a Grayson Steadholder is meddling directly in Manticore politics by sneaking around the legally elected and appointed government. Despite how much people might dislike it, in -all- ways the High Ridge government was the constitutionally legal government. To do what has been outlined is a violation of the Manticore government's Constitution role. Basically, there's a very high chance it would be taken as an illegal action.

For there to be peace, at that time it had to come through the High Ridge government. Anything else would run straight into a constitutional crisis, and remember that Elizabeth specifically didn't do it because she was worried that the courts would rule against her if that happened. If she had the idea that she had a good chance of surviving such a crisis, she might have very well done it, but she didn't and above all , she believes in the rule of law. If she broke or bent the constitutional boundaries like that, even for this, why would they trust her or her descendants to stay within the bounds of the Manticore constitution at a later date. Once you justify breaking the rules for something, it becomes easier to do it again and again and again. Always for 'good' reasons. That she didn't do it shows she has respect for the law even when she doesn't like how its playing out.

It seems like you're basically saying; 'screw the laws/constitution and do it anyways, who will argue if we get a peace treaty? I don't like the current government so I'll go around them'. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of a rule of law society when the monarch bends the rules because she wants to. So I think there would be many Liberals and Independents that would vote against it because it came through the wrong channels.
Last edited by Zakharra on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: The Problem with Haven
Post by SWM   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:57 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

The simple fact that Grayson had negotiated independently with Haven would automatically break Grayson from the Alliance. That's part of the point of the Alliance.

Honor could indeed make a speech in Parliament, as Countess Harrington. But she could not introduce any legislation concerning a treaty. That would have to come from the Government. She can make all the speeches she wants, but that doesn't do anything if the High Ridge government does not actually negotiate. Threatening the breakup of the Alliance is useless since the Alliance would already be broken by Grayson. Honor could ask Parliament to urge High Ridge to negotiate in good faith. But she and the other Opposition members have been doing that all along. They don't have a majority in the upper House--the Conservative alliance does. That's why High Ridge is the Prime Minister in the first place. Bringing this up on the floor of the Legislature will have as little effect as all the other attempts by the Opposition to force High Ridge to do anything.

And any treaty negotiated by Grayson could only be peace between Grayson and Haven--similar to the one that Erewhon negotiated. It would not resolve any of the issues that stand between Manticore and Haven, such as the disposition of the captured territory. Grayson could work up a treaty proposal to bring to Manticore, acting as a go-between. But why would the High Ridge government pay any more attention to that than they have to the exact same proposals that Haven had made directly?

None of this would do any good, and the only result would be that Grayson is no longer in the Alliance. Which the High Ridge government would probably be content to see.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: The Problem with Haven
Post by Zakharra   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:01 am

Zakharra
Captain of the List

Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:50 pm

A very good point SWM.
Top

Return to Honorverse