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Sonja Hemphill

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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:19 am

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Tim wrote:
cthia wrote:I must apologize to Sonja Hemphill. I think most of us have been too hard on her. So we assumed she had a weapons development fluke, but as RFC has pointed out, as did Sonja herself, Fearless was simply meant to be a testbed. It is only human to remember one's controversial snafus (justified or no) than their many successes


Sorry disagree. At the least Honor should get Hemphill in a dark alley will no witnesses and kick the 'H' put of her and inflict as much damage up to but just short of death.

Hemphill did not do her duty and vote to convict and sentence Northhollow to death. That allowed Northhollow to have Tinkersley murdered.

This is my Treecat side coming out. :)


I understand you're channeling your treecat, but remember that sometimes the 'cats simply have to accept that two-legs do things their own way because . . . well, because they're two-legs.

Sonja voted to dismiss Young from the service in disgrace. She voted to remove him from any position in which he would ever influence the Navy in any way, aside from whatever political position he might be able to achieve (not, admittedly, a minor consideration given his father and his father's files). Her vote was also further vindication of Honor's actions which (as was pointed out) were themselves questionable under the letter of the Article of War but had been approved (arguably a political decision) at the highest level. She also voted to convict on all but the capital charge despite the argument presented (and which was, by the way, entirely accurate) that Young was himself the senior office in command at the moment he broke off. The JAG had decided that his ignorance of Sarnow's incapacitation meant that he didn't know he was legally in command and therefore constituted defiance of the officer he thought was still in command, but a narrow interpretation by the court could still have concluded that the JAG was incorrect and that the actual chain of command, not the one he believed obtained, covered him against his refusal to obey Honor's orders. (And, BTW, the desperate tactical decision --- in which Young hadn't been informed of the relief force's arrival --- could very easily have been construed as justifying his decision. Of course, there would still be the minor problem that (a) he hadn't been ordered to run for it by the superior he thought was still in command and (b) if he thought he was in command he failed to pass any orders to scatter on to the rest of "his" command, but the argument that the tactical situation justified his decision could and had been made.)

In addition to the above, Sonja was aware of the political dynamic in which Parliament (specifically the Lords) was holding up a desperately needed declaration of war, and she understood that the Conservative Association and its allies were prepared to hold it up still longer unless its behind-the-scenes corrupt kingmaker's (that would be North Hollow) son got off with his life. And it should be remembered that she had no reason to know or believe that Young would be so far gone in his hatred of Honor that he would hire an assassin to kill both her and Paul Tankersly.

In short, she faced a difficult decision in a case whose prosecution depended upon some difficult interpretations of military law, which was highly politically charged, and in which she was clearly willing to become the swing vote that gave Young's enemies and accusers 90% of what they wanted while giving Young's protectors/supporters a big enough concession to let the SKM get on with fighting the war (as it desperately needed to do) while the Peeps were completely off balance because of the Pierre coup and the purges of the Legislaturalists.

IF she'd had the least idea that Young would resort to outright murder, she would never have supported letting him off with his life. She didn't know that would happen any more than anyone else (including Honor or Paul) knew.

Honor still doesn't know who voted how on the court-martial. She's never asked Hamish, and even if she did, he wouldn't tell her. However, there have been rumors for years about how the vote broke down (and why) which are essentially accurate. That is, she's pretty darned sure who broke the deadlock and what the nature of the compromise was.

She doesn't like it. She's never liked it, and the fact that politics played the decisive role in saving Pavel from execution still leaves a bitter taste in her mouth. She has never, however, blamed Sonja for it because she recognizes that without her vote, Young would have been acquitted. She knows as well as anyone else that Sonja had no way to know what Young was going to do, and while she may deeply regret the consequences of his actions after Sonja's vote effectively spared his life, she doesn't blame Sonja for those consequences.

I'm not saying that she never blamed Sonja for them, and I'm not saying that she doesn't recognize Sonja's part in a clearly political outcome. I'm simply saying that now, years after the events, she knows that what happened was no one's fault except Pavel Young's and that holding Sonja guilty of his actions when there was no way anyone could have predicted those actions would be far worse than simply unreasonable.

Does she wish Sonja had voted to convict on all charges? Of course she does! Does she realize she lives in a real world where outcomes sometimes aren't decided the way they ought to be? Yes. Does she believe that Sonja provided the best outcome pragmatically possible at the time? Yes. Does she believe that someone should be held responsible for another's actions when there was no way for the someone in question to have predicted those actions? No, she does not.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:47 am

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Did you ever hear this one; military justice is to justice as military music is to music.

They have to consider the good of the service as well as innocence and guilt. That compromise both punished the guilty and was the best for the RMN and Manticore as a whole.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:31 am

runsforcelery
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crewdude48 wrote:Did you ever hear this one; military justice is to justice as military music is to music.

They have to consider the good of the service as well as innocence and guilt. That compromise both punished the guilty and was the best for the RMN and Manticore as a whole.


That is exactly what it did, and exactly the reason Sonja wouldn't let Pavel walk. Paul --- and Honor's duel with Pavel --- were collateral damage no one could have seen coming at the time.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:04 am

Spacekiwi
Admiral

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Location: New Zealand

First situation has the possibility of some of your people surviving longer than one battle from the offer of surrender the GA broadcasts before opening fire on your ship.


The other.....



FOR HARRINGTON, AND NO QUARTER!
Or some such.....


dreamrider wrote:
Hmm...I'm Mesan Alignment, and Honor Harrington knows that we staged the Yawata Strike and the Blackbird Strike

or

I'm Mesan Alignment, and the 'Friends of Honor' club otherwise known as the Grand Alliance is convinced that we offed Honor Harrington.

I'm not feeling the material difference here.

dreamrider
`
Image


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:13 am

cthia
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Tim wrote:
cthia wrote:
I must apologize to Sonja Hemphill. I think most of us have been too hard on her. So we assumed she had a weapons development fluke, but as RFC has pointed out, as did Sonja herself, Fearless was simply meant to be a testbed. It is only human to remember one's controversial snafus (justified or no) than their many successes


Sorry disagree. At the least Honor should get Hemphill in a dark alley will no witnesses and kick the 'H' put of her and inflict as much damage up to but just short of death.

Hemphill did not do her duty and vote to convict and sentence Northhollow to death. That allowed Northhollow to have Tinkersley murdered.

This is my Treecat side coming out. :)




――――――――――――――――――――――――――



Sonja's C.S. Lewis shining through.
“When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”


― C.S. Lewis


There is no way in hell I can truthfully say that I was not angry at Sonja as well for her (seeming) lack of suppprt for Honor. As a reader, when the deciding vote fell to Sonja, I felt 'Yes, we've got you you SOB.' But alas, I caught no joy. Out of anger, with no other available target that anger was to be directed at Sonja.

After the political seeds of reality began to sprout, I quickly realized that Sonja is to be praised.

She did her duty! Difficult it must have been for her, being crushed between two opposing, emotionally galvanized political forces, simultaneously considering her own social and personal implications threatening to ensue.

Though this was a chance to throw Honor a bone, like it or no, the entire court martial was not about Honor. And if the Queen could have, would have, had a discussion with Honor and Sonja, she would have, much to her own chagrin, pointed out the true defendant on trial ― 'the war effort.'

For Sonja to vote to convict under the circumstances, just to satisfy the taste for revenge on everyone's tongue, would have been tantamount to supreme childishness and irresponsibility, and would simply have proven to be ultimately unpalatable, after that victory became quickly overshadowed by the impending political and military disaster, and its repercussions.

Sonja surely didn't fail in this regard. She put away childish things and found quite possibly the only compromise.

The true failures are the individual jurors who voted to support Pavel Young. If Honor would have sought justice against Sonja in a dark alley and killed her, it would have been totally unlike Honor to miss the true targets!

An aside:
I'm not quite so sure that Pavel Young being convicted of all charges would have saved Tankersley. Young had entirely too much financial clout and a political vise-grip (North Hollow files) that his anger, and fear of dying, melding with Honor being the cause of it all, would have brought about the same results. Only now, Honor would not have been able to exact her own brand of appropriate justice on a scum that had too good a death.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:40 am

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cthia wrote:An aside:
I'm not quite so sure that Pavel Young being convicted of all charges would have saved Tankersley. Young had entirely too much financial clout and a political vise-grip (North Hollow files) that his anger, and fear of dying, melding with Honor being the cause of it all, would have brought about the same results. Only now, Honor would not have been able to exact her own brand of appropriate justice on a scum that had too good a death.


Weren't the other charges carrying the capital penalty? If convicted, he would have been executed. Even if his father still keeled over after hearing that verdict, Pavel's inheritance of the Earldom wouldn't save him - it'd just pass on to his brother after the firing squad was finished.

It also took Pavel a while to get the ball rolling on Tankersley's assassination. He didn't just get home after being cashiered and pick up the phone, dial 1800-hitmen-555 and hire Summervale. Even if Stefan didn't have the benefit of seeing Honor take Summervale down and then hounding Pavel all the way into the House of Lords and ultimately killing him, I doubt he would've been that personally devoted to destroying Honor's career.

After all, the boy's an Earl now. In the absence of deadly duels, Pavel should have passed the Earldom on to a child of his own, sending Stefan spinning off into obscurity as a petty, untitled aristocrat.

As it happened, Stefan didn't accomplish much against Honor. The best he was able to do was a smear campaign about an affair with White Haven thirteen years after the events of Field of Dishonor. Granted, Honor did spend a lot of time away and until her return from Hell, she had effectively no political influence in the Star Kingdom.

There is also the influence of Elaine/Georgia. An operator as savvy as her would ignore any orders from an imprisoned North Hollow awaiting execution and immediately latch onto Stefan. She had an access code to the Files when Stefan did not, meaning once Pavel died she controlled the Files, not the North Hollow family. This may explain why Stefan never really moved against Harrington in all those years, despite his eagerness to continue the smear campaign after Emily shot it in the face with a shotgun.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:07 am

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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:An aside:
I'm not quite so sure that Pavel Young being convicted of all charges would have saved Tankersley. Young had entirely too much financial clout and a political vise-grip (North Hollow files) that his anger, and fear of dying, melding with Honor being the cause of it all, would have brought about the same results. Only now, Honor would not have been able to exact her own brand of appropriate justice on a scum that had too good a death.


Weren't the other charges carrying the capital penalty? If convicted, he would have been executed. Even if his father still keeled over after hearing that verdict, Pavel's inheritance of the Earldom wouldn't save him - it'd just pass on to his brother after the firing squad was finished.



Actually, it would have passed before that. It was mentioned somewhere in the text that if he had been found guilty of the last two counts, the capital charges, he legally would not have been able to hold a noble title. If they passed down a guilty verdict, and then his father still immediately had a heart attack right then and there, Stefan Young would have become the 11th Earl North Hollow, not Pavel.

On the other hand, I think the heart attack might have come from the whipsawing of emotion. Sward direction meant Pavel was found guilty, but it tuns out only of the minor charges and would only get a slap on the wrists, but he is being discharged in disgrace. I think that it was that whipsawing of emotion that did him in.

Dimitri probably wasn't long for this world anyway, and seeing his eldest in front of a firing squad wouldn't have done him any favors, but if he had survived, even for a few more months, Paul probably would have been fine; I don't think Dimitri was the type of person who would take petty revenge like Pavel was. He was still a horible human being, mind you, but he was much more cogent of what other people might do to him that Pavel ever was.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by The E   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:37 am

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crewdude48 wrote:On the other hand, I think the heart attack might have come from the whipsawing of emotion. Sward direction meant Pavel was found guilty, but it tuns out only of the minor charges and would only get a slap on the wrists, but he is being discharged in disgrace. I think that it was that whipsawing of emotion that did him in.


And the realization that all the bullying and blackmailing in the world were insufficient to produce the result he wanted would be any less stressful?

No, I think that the elder Young's fate was pretty much sealed the moment it was clear that a guilty verdict of some kind was going to be handed out.

Dimitri probably wasn't long for this world anyway, and seeing his eldest in front of a firing squad wouldn't have done him any favors, but if he had survived, even for a few more months, Paul probably would have been fine; I don't think Dimitri was the type of person who would take petty revenge like Pavel was. He was still a horible human being, mind you, but he was much more cogent of what other people might do to him that Pavel ever was.


Agreed. I would presume that most of the ire these people feel would be directed more towards the people that directly failed them in securing Pavel's continued existence. Sure, they wouldn't exactly be friendly towards Honor, or White Haven, but that would probably manifest more in the political realm rather than in assassination squads.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:14 am

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The E wrote:
crewdude48 wrote:On the other hand, I think the heart attack might have come from the whipsawing of emotion. Sward direction meant Pavel was found guilty, but it tuns out only of the minor charges and would only get a slap on the wrists, but he is being discharged in disgrace. I think that it was that whipsawing of emotion that did him in.


And the realization that all the bullying and blackmailing in the world were insufficient to produce the result he wanted would be any less stressful?

No, I think that the elder Young's fate was pretty much sealed the moment it was clear that a guilty verdict of some kind was going to be handed out.


If that was the case, his hart attack would have happened when he saw the direction Pavel's sward was pointing. The fact of the matter is that if Pavel was guilty of any one count, he was obviously guilty of them all. Dimitri should have automatically assumed that his son was going to die when he saw that there was a guilty verdict. If he lived through that, he probably would have lived through them voicing what he already knew was coming. It was that plunging recognition, followed so closely by soaring hope, then dropping into deep dispair that did him in.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by The E   » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:37 am

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crewdude48 wrote:If that was the case, his hart attack would have happened when he saw the direction Pavel's sward was pointing. The fact of the matter is that if Pavel was guilty of any one count, he was obviously guilty of them all. Dimitri should have automatically assumed that his son was going to die when he saw that there was a guilty verdict. If he lived through that, he probably would have lived through them voicing what he already knew was coming. It was that plunging recognition, followed so closely by soaring hope, then dropping into deep dispair that did him in.


The same narrative would have played out with a guilty verdict for all counts. First, despair at seeing that a guilty verdict would be handed out. Then, hope that it wouldn't be a death sentence. Then, despair at seeing that it was actually a death sentence.

The point is, Young's health was sufficiently fragile that pretty much anything would have triggered a deadly heart attack (or whatever it was that hit him). The only thing that might have given him a slightly bigger chance of survival would be a "not guilty" verdict, given that that was what he was expecting and hoping for.
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