Things that made me chuckle while reading

DarkEnigma wrote:The title is actually "Command Master Chief" or CMC for short. It isn't a rank though, it is the billet for the most senior enlisted person on the ship (I think they call this the "bosun" in the Honorverse). Even if the billet happens to be filled by a Senior Chief, he/she could still be called CMC because that is the title of his/her billet (sort of like XO is always called XO no matter his actual rank). I know the Air Force uses the "Senior Master" nomenclature for one of their ranks, but in the Navy both "Senior Chief" and "Master Chief" are discreet ranks. To a sailor's ear, combining the two sounds rather silly.

First, CMC can only be a Master Chief; it is not a rank per say, but a rate/rank combination, which is why a CMC replaces the rate designation on his left arm with a star. If the senior person at a command is not an E-9, they are given the title "Senior Enlisted Adviser" or SEA, unless they are on a sub, when they are the COB, or Chief of the Boat. (mutter mutter bubble heads being different, mutter mutter...)

Second, in the RMN, Senior Chief and Master Chief are still distinct ranks, but Master chief has one above it, Senior Master Chief. Basically the RMN decided they needed an E-10, and honestly, what else could you have called it?

DarkEnigma wrote:That is well and good in theory, but I can tell you from personal experience that any non-com caught saluting or sir-ing a middie would be in for the ribbing of his life! They would be the butt of jokes for weeks.

In the real Navy, middies aren't seen as "real officers". In fact, they are lower than the lowest enlisted person aboard any ship because at least that enlisted person is doing a job which is helping the ship meet its mission. Middies, on the other hand, are often given make-work or tasked with following crew members around to see how they do their jobs (and often getting underfoot and slowing them down in the bargain). I can just imagine what a Chief might say to any middie who thought he was due proper honors!

The Honorverse is very much not based on today's navys, with instant communication to the entire chain of command.
They are based on the ancient "ships of the line" type navies, where you could talk to who you can physically see, and sometimes not even then. Back in those days, Midshipmen were in the chain of command, were due salutes and "sir"s and could even become captain if it all fell in the pot.

ART
Tourville's treecat partner sealing himself up in his spacesuit every time Tourville even unwraps a cigar.

DarkEnigma wrote:

saber964 wrote:The reason why middies are saluted and called sir or ma'am is because the middies in question have already graduated from the naval academy and temporarily carry an officers warrant and are considered warrant officer in the chain of command, they don't get a commission until they complete their middy cruse.

That is well and good in theory, but I can tell you from personal experience that any non-com caught saluting or sir-ing a middie would be in for the ribbing of his life! They would be the butt of jokes for weeks.

In the real Navy, middies aren't seen as "real officers". In fact, they are lower than the lowest enlisted person aboard any ship because at least that enlisted person is doing a job which is helping the ship meet its mission. Middies, on the other hand, are often given make-work or tasked with following crew members around to see how they do their jobs (and often getting underfoot and slowing them down in the bargain). I can just imagine what a Chief might say to any middie who thought he was due proper honors, or, God help them, actually think they could give out orders!

In the US Navy, since the 1800s the term 'midshipman' refers to people who haven't yet graduated from Annapolis. They are still students. In the RMN, midshipmen are the juniormost officers, assigned to a ship's company just like the chiefs. Think of them as ensigns (j.g.).

In MoH

A poor ensign has the watch as Admiral Harrington's ship docks, following centuries of tradition he begins to follow protocol. He stops, befuddled in his tracks as the Queen herself follows Honor out of the ship. Poor sap, nothing in the manual that covers what to do addressing this kind of firepower. Poor ensign didn't know whether to salute, shit, grovel or piss his pants.

Bill Woods wrote:

saber964 wrote:The reason why middies are saluted and called sir or ma'am is because the middies in question have already graduated from the naval academy and temporarily carry an officers warrant and are considered warrant officer in the chain of command, they don't get a commission until they complete their middy cruse.

DarkEnigma wrote:That is well and good in theory, but I can tell you from personal experience that any non-com caught saluting or sir-ing a middie would be in for the ribbing of his life! They would be the butt of jokes for weeks.

In the real Navy, middies aren't seen as "real officers". In fact, they are lower than the lowest enlisted person aboard any ship because at least that enlisted person is doing a job which is helping the ship meet its mission. Middies, on the other hand, are often given make-work or tasked with following crew members around to see how they do their jobs (and often getting underfoot and slowing them down in the bargain). I can just imagine what a Chief might say to any middie who thought he was due proper honors, or, God help them, actually think they could give out orders!

In the US Navy, since the 1800s the term 'midshipman' refers to people who haven't yet graduated from Annapolis. They are still students. In the RMN, midshipmen are the juniormost officers, assigned to a ship's company just like the chiefs. Think of them as ensigns (j.g.).

"Ensign (jg)" is, in fact, a pretty fair approximation.

RMN middy cruises have no precise parallel in modern USN service. On those cruises, they should (in a lot of ways) be considered the equivalent of a "passed midshipman" --- a midshipman (pre-academy use of the term) who had passed his lieutenant's examination and was eligible for promotion as soon as there was a slot in the ships table of organization into which me might be stuck. The parallel isn't complete, of course, because I deliberately set out to build a navy which --- while internally consistent --- wasn't identical to any existing naval. That is, I deliberately designed differences into it.

Should I feel flattered about how well I succeeded in creating a "real" space navy because people feel an urge to scratch the "this is different" itch when they see it? You're not the first to do that, BTW. I've had several people tell me "The RMN wouldn't do it that way because the British Royal Navy didn't." To which I usually reply "But this is the Royal Manticoran Navy and most of its officers never even heard of the British Navy except as a historical example in a lecture or a textbook somewhere."

In this instance, a midshipman has completed his/her education at the academy, including all of the simulations and qualifications suited to his/her soon-to-be lowly rank of ensign. Until he/she's been evaluated on shipboard, however, the Navy still has the right to completely flush the commission (i.e., graduate the middy as a civilian) and the CO's evaluation may also result in the middy in question being offered a staff commission outside the line of command (that ism, being found unfit for executive command in a warship). Think of this as a prospective RMN officer's very first experience with the same philosophy as the one behind "the Crusher."

One of the reasons the RMN officer corps has almost always (not always always; there have been moments which were less than stellar) been one of the galaxy's best is because of the rigorous way in which it gets "weeded" from the academy on. Sometimes someone like Elvis Santino or Pavel Young gets through the filters due to patronage (this was much more likely to happen before King Roger's buildup), but by and large someone steps on people like them at an early stage of their careers, and even they had to pass the Crusher on their own. Grades might be shaved to favor someone with connections, but no one who demonstrated that he was flatly incompetent (at least in sims) in the Crusher would ever be promoted to higher starship command. And without command of a hyper-capable unit on your ticket, you don't make flag rank outside certain specific and tightly limited staff/branch categories. For example, a surgeon admiral is still effectively junior to an ensign (jg) if they're the only two officers in the lifeboat. The ensign owes him the courtesy of his (flag) rank; he has no command authority over the ensign.

As for the senior master chief E10 example, that's exactly what happened and why I invented --- and, BTW, I knew I was inventing it --- the rank in the first place.

Storm from the Shadows
Michelle jerking Gwen Archer's chain about his relationship with Helga...

"I mean, I understand that you actually subjected yourselves to the hardship of dining at Sigourney's just so you could set up that 'dinner party' of mine." Her eyes radiated soulful gratitude as she gazed at him. "I do hope that we're not going to be forced to demand any equally painful sacrifices out of you this time around."

cthia wrote:In MoH

A poor ensign has the watch as Admiral Harrington's ship docks, following centuries of tradition he begins to follow protocol. He stops, befuddled in his tracks as the Queen herself follows Honor out of the ship. Poor sap, nothing in the manual that covers what to do addressing this kind of firepower. Poor ensign didn't know whether to salute, shit, grovel or piss his pants.

Oh, the manual does cover it -- more sideboys, basically. It's hardly the first time the Queen has boarded one of her ships, after all. The kid just wasn't given a heads-up to turn to that page of the manual. (The ship's captain would probably have appreciated notification also.)

[Added:] Eloise Pritchart had boarded earlier ... "Haven arriving!" How many sideboys does a then-enemy head-of-state rate?

runsforcelery wrote:
One of the reasons the RMN officer corps has almost always (not always always; there have been moments which were less than stellar) been one of the galaxy's best is because of the rigorous way in which it gets "weeded" from the academy on. Sometimes someone like Elvis Santino or Pavel Young gets through the filters due to patronage (this was much more likely to happen before King Roger's buildup), but by and large someone steps on people like them at an early stage of their careers, and even they had to pass the Crusher on their own. Grades might be shaved to favor someone with connections, but no one who demonstrated that he was flatly incompetent (at least in sims) in the Crusher would ever be promoted to higher starship command. And without command of a hyper-capable unit on your ticket, you don't make flag rank outside certain specific and tightly limited staff/branch categories. For example, a surgeon admiral is still effectively junior to an ensign (jg) if they're the only two officers in the lifeboat. The ensign owes him the courtesy of his (flag) rank; he has no command authority over the ensign.

I've often wondered just how many centuries out of date, how much of a weight disadvantage, or more likely both the ship models in the OpFORs for the Crusher simulators had to be downgraded to before Santino and Young could pass.

Bill Woods wrote:[Added:] Eloise Pritchart had boarded earlier ... "Haven arriving!" How many sideboys does a then-enemy head-of-state rate?

Six side boys, plus two Marines?

Chuckle-worthy moments: War Maiden's XO reading Santino the riot act.
-------------------
If a business tries something that doesn't work, they have to stop doing it or they will go broke. If the government tries something that doesn't work, they will just keep shoveling our money into it forever.

There is a huge difference between acting correctly when the punishment is embarrassement and when the punishment is death.