Issues due to the size of polities

The SL seems to be the best case of course, but the SEM is getting there with the Talbert Quadrent. The GA is just an alliance so its not a concern, but even Haven is an example, espcailly under Harrison. The systems were centrally run by the Haven system.
My biggest fear is that the SEM will end up making commitments in the SL once it breaks up that will extend the comm lag and re-introduce the same issues that the SL is having.
If RFC can comment I'd apprciate it. I know he has yet you write the story on this yet, but I feal the biggest issue with the SL is the fact that it was just to big to be properly governed by a single government. By having such a huge polity the the Mandrins were able to sieze power behind the scenes due to the mess of beuracracy.
I feel that a smaller star-nation, while facing other chalanges, and that this is still possible, it would be less likely to happen.
Am I of my rocker on this?

While that's certainly a problem, the SL has far more serious problems than a communication lag. Rampant nepotism, micro-dictatorships and and arrogant laziness are only some.

How did any empire prior to the advent of electronic communication survive? By distributing authority such that leadership is close at hand and has the ability to make decisions in the empire's name. The Star Empire is already organized in a federal manner. The individual lobes of the SEM (Old Star Kingdom, Talbott Quadrant, and presumably Silesia) have their own government, and can make decisions which impact them without needing to kick it up to the national level. Ditto for the Republic of Haven (although I believe it's on an individual member system basis instead of by astrographic region). Even the League has its member systems exercising local autonomy, and the Protectorates have OFS governors.

As Quinlan73 points out, the problem isn't necessarily with the communications lag. It's the comm lag coupled with a governing structure which is rife with abuses.

Duckk wrote:How did any empire prior to the advent of electronic communication survive? By distributing authority such that leadership is close at hand and has the ability to make decisions in the empire's name. The Star Empire is already organized in a federal manner. The individual lobes of the SEM (Old Star Kingdom, Talbott Quadrant, and presumably Silesia) have their own government, and can make decisions which impact them without needing to kick it up to the national level. Ditto for the Republic of Haven (although I believe it's on an individual member system basis instead of by astrographic region). Even the League has its member systems exercising local autonomy, and the Protectorates have OFS governors.

As Quinlan73 points out, the problem isn't necessarily with the communications lag. It's the comm lag coupled with a governing structure which is rife with abuses.

Right and my argument is the lesser the lag the less the abuses. The farther away from a center of power, the more likely you are to find problems like graft and nepotism. My argument is that several smaller polities would be better.

You are always going to find the worst of human excesses. It is unavoidable human nature, and comm lag has nothing to do with it. Unless you completely give up on being a multi-system polity and being a player on the interstellar stage, and instead retreat to a single system nation, communications delay is a fact of life.

What really matters is if there is a system in place to enforce the social contract the government has made with the governed. That is what ailed the Solarian League, not necessarily the sheer physical distance involved. The Sollies intentionally gave their government weak powers (in most areas, at any rate). While a great idea for protecting the founding systems' independence, it also made holding them accountable nigh impossible. The SEM, on the other hand, has clear lines of power and mechanisms with which offenders can be caught and punished.

Duckk wrote:You are always going to find the worst of human excesses. It is unavoidable human nature, and comm lag has nothing to do with it. Unless you completely give up on being a multi-system polity and being a player on the interstellar stage, and instead retreat to a single system nation, communications delay is a fact of life.

What really matters is if there is a system in place to enforce the social contract the government has made with the governed. That is what ailed the Solarian League, not necessarily the sheer physical distance involved. The Sollies intentionally gave their government weak powers (in most areas, at any rate). While a great idea for protecting the founding systems' independence, it also made holding them accountable nigh impossible. The SEM, on the other hand, has clear lines of power and mechanisms with which offenders can be caught and punished.

The real mistake the Solarians made was OFS. OFS became a semi-independent and wholly unregulated appendage of the Solarian League, which the League permitted to continue existing because it produced the funds necessary to run the League's government. Even the Solarian runaway bureaucracy wouldn't have been too bad if the League had continued to only govern the founding members of the League.

It is more complicated than simply OFS.
The League's legislative structure makes any but the most minor unobjectionable legislation a major hurdle. But, per RFC, there is no rule about how far regulations can spread. Without an effective legislature, and with a joke of an executive branch (there is a president, an executive council (representatives from each world with a veto), and a bunch of parliamentary-style ministers which function as a government (were it not for the fact that Solarian League Governments reorganize or fall at a whim).
So it falls to the secretaries to maintain an effective government.
Back when comm times, and trade levels made mockery of any multi sector government, more complicated than an Economic Union and Military Treaty Organization this was ok.
As both improved, the League had more to do, but it is not really set up for the purpose.
League General Funds are generated by fees on interstellar commerce ( some of the fees on interstellar banking are alienated to fund the League Depository Insurance Administration, which also has first call on the General Fund), and special service fees. Which means lumpy and unpredictable. The Warshawski Sail is invented, meaningful commerce for profit is now possible. At some point the League has a war with somebody. The bureaucrats who actually ran the League probably started compromising by farming out certain contracts to Trans-stellars, in the name of predictability, after a century or two. At some point someone noticed the joy of rediscounting and pocketing part of the boot for overhead (finding some 'worthy cause' which has a higher rate of interest and refinancing it at a higher rate than you will be charged). Then someone noticed that the League can offer services to nonmember systems. And then someone noticed that the League's nonmember clients aren't really in a position to argue about the fee schedule, correct for a temporary projected cash flow problem by raising the administrative overhead, they reach the point where it becomes logical for them to expand their industrial plant, the league welcomes the opportunity to find them a good packaged deal, as per the standing arrangement. The League bureaucracy makes a habit of turning a blind eye to certain trans-stellars, particularly when they are acting outside the League, especially so when they are doing so to places that are not league clients, all in the name of not rocking the boat. Close relationships with trans-stellars complete with nominal gifts, favor barters, and understanding about active retirements, are probably not unusual, though actual bribery and graft is probably still punished.

We are now, more or less, at around 1520 PD, and times are a changing, the enormous navy that the League has maintained and grown is obviously going obsolescent, grav-plates, and inertial compensators that tolerate them are an actively evolving technology, significant funds will likely be needed to preform upgrades beyond the original, and a massive amount will likely be needed in the indefinite future when it becomes possible to start building ships with permanent decks. Fund generation has stopped being a means to an end, but an end all of its own. The League can now, but squeezing generate a surplus whenever it needs to, and people have started to ignore honest graft, after all if it is lost in the rounding, who really cares. Modern designs arrive in the 1580s. A couple of decades, later DNs, and the prospect of SDs make BBs obsolete, so the League needs to replace its most expensive ships, twice within fifty years. Thanks to a deepening culture of endemic petty corruption, funds become tight, so OFS is allowed turn into parasite on the League client states, which in turn, means that the league's bureaucracy is pretty much doomed to further corruption. So on and so forth.

Crown Loyalist wrote:

Duckk wrote:You are always going to find the worst of human excesses. It is unavoidable human nature, and comm lag has nothing to do with it. Unless you completely give up on being a multi-system polity and being a player on the interstellar stage, and instead retreat to a single system nation, communications delay is a fact of life.

What really matters is if there is a system in place to enforce the social contract the government has made with the governed. That is what ailed the Solarian League, not necessarily the sheer physical distance involved. The Sollies intentionally gave their government weak powers (in most areas, at any rate). While a great idea for protecting the founding systems' independence, it also made holding them accountable nigh impossible. The SEM, on the other hand, has clear lines of power and mechanisms with which offenders can be caught and punished.

The real mistake the Solarians made was OFS. OFS became a semi-independent and wholly unregulated appendage of the Solarian League, which the League permitted to continue existing because it produced the funds necessary to run the League's government. Even the Solarian runaway bureaucracy wouldn't have been too bad if the League had continued to only govern the founding members of the League.

Although I would certainly agree with the proposition that too big is simply too big to be effective, I think that the problem with the Solarian League has much to do with its constitutional system's weaknesses and with how those weaknesses necessitated measures that eluded or circumvented any control over them.

The same can not be said for the Star Empire, although I cannot for the life of me understand why Mr Weber chose to model the Star Empire's constitutional system on that of the United Kingdom. At least he gave the Star Empire a formal constitution, which is better than the UK ever managed to do.

Anyways, let's not forget the Republic of Haven, which is MUCH larger even than the Star Empire, yet manages quite nicely to maintain not only an effective national government but also a deep sense of national identity and citizenship among its people. That was true even during the darkest days of the Committee's rule, at least for the People's Republic's core systems.

I have been mulling this over the weekend.
Everything said is true, but I maintain that when you have an entity so bing that there is noticible comm lag you are going to foment dissallusion and rebellion, espcially if it is a corrupt centeral power. IE the Maya sector.
Even in history, the colonies from Britain, no real justification for the intial dicontentment, except lack of representation, because of the distances involved. The way Britain cracked down, loss of rights, lead to the further demonstrations that lead to the War.
Rome crumbled when it's government spread too far from central authority, of course there where many other reasons also, but it was a contributing factor.
Alexander the Great had to return from India because he was too far from the central power base, and his soldiers would go no futher.
It was mentioned that in any system you will find corruption, and that is true, but the further distant from the central power, of the head of power, in Alexander and Romes case, the more corrupt things become, and the greater the chance of corruption because someone feels they can get away with it.
With the SL, yes the type of government was a huge issue do to the bueractic tangels of law, but I feel the distance was an even bigger issue. Its how Roszak and Buragos could get so far in their plans to seperate. How Mesa, through Manpower, could manipulate Hung Bo, Crandal and Bing, because they were so far from central authority, they could be nudged (and their own arrogance of course).
I fear for the SEM for just that reason. When it was just the Manticore system everthing is pretty tight. Even with Bassalic and San Martin, they are only a wormhole away. Now with the Talbet Quadrent added, it is sof far off into the distance, yes I know they have a Commonwealth system there, but really, aside from the excesses of OFS, and looking at what OFS was truly meant to do, how different is expansion into the TQ then OFS helping systems genuinly in need, before it became totally corrupt. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
I know RFC can make it all work as he writes it but I fear that it could lead to bigger issues.

Duckk wrote:What really matters is if there is a system in place to enforce the social contract the government has made with the governed. That is what ailed the Solarian League, not necessarily the sheer physical distance involved. The Sollies intentionally gave their government weak powers (in most areas, at any rate). While a great idea for protecting the founding systems' independence, it also made holding them accountable nigh impossible. The SEM, on the other hand, has clear lines of power and mechanisms with which offenders can be caught and punished.

And when the League was smaller I bet it had clear lines as well, until they were blurred and mangled by legislation and buracracy.

EDIT: Submitted to early
I fear that as time goes on, the governing of a large and growing polity will create these blurred lines. Law upon law, upon precedent, upon cultural quirk, will eventually lead to inablitiy to do anything concrete for fear of offending someone else.

Commodore Oakius wrote:I have been mulling this over the weekend.
Everything said is true, but I maintain that when you have an entity so bing that there is noticible comm lag you are going to foment dissallusion and rebellion, espcially if it is a corrupt centeral power. IE the Maya sector.
Even in history, the colonies from Britain, no real justification for the intial dicontentment, except lack of representation, because of the distances involved. The way Britain cracked down, loss of rights, lead to the further demonstrations that lead to the War.
Rome crumbled when it's government spread too far from central authority, of course there where many other reasons also, but it was a contributing factor.
Alexander the Great had to return from India because he was too far from the central power base, and his soldiers would go no futher.
It was mentioned that in any system you will find corruption, and that is true, but the further distant from the central power, of the head of power, in Alexander and Romes case, the more corrupt things become, and the greater the chance of corruption because someone feels they can get away with it.
With the SL, yes the type of government was a huge issue do to the bueractic tangels of law, but I feel the distance was an even bigger issue. Its how Roszak and Buragos could get so far in their plans to seperate. How Mesa, through Manpower, could manipulate Hung Bo, Crandal and Bing, because they were so far from central authority, they could be nudged (and their own arrogance of course).
I fear for the SEM for just that reason. When it was just the Manticore system everthing is pretty tight. Even with Bassalic and San Martin, they are only a wormhole away. Now with the Talbet Quadrent added, it is sof far off into the distance, yes I know they have a Commonwealth system there, but really, aside from the excesses of OFS, and looking at what OFS was truly meant to do, how different is expansion into the TQ then OFS helping systems genuinly in need, before it became totally corrupt. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
I know RFC can make it all work as he writes it but I fear that it could lead to bigger issues.

Duckk wrote:What really matters is if there is a system in place to enforce the social contract the government has made with the governed. That is what ailed the Solarian League, not necessarily the sheer physical distance involved. The Sollies intentionally gave their government weak powers (in most areas, at any rate). While a great idea for protecting the founding systems' independence, it also made holding them accountable nigh impossible. The SEM, on the other hand, has clear lines of power and mechanisms with which offenders can be caught and punished.

And when the League was smaller I bet it had clear lines as well, until they were blurred and mangled by legislation and buracracy.

EDIT: Submitted to early
I fear that as time goes on, the governing of a large and growing polity will create these blurred lines. Law upon law, upon precedent, upon cultural quirk, will eventually lead to inablitiy to do anything concrete for fear of offending someone else.

There is somethimg to your point, here. But remember that Rome lasted a thousand years. The SL is what, maybe 700 years old give or take. Large or small, all things change, either by renewal or decay. Nothing is permanet.

Don