Beowulf right to Leave the SL

namelessfly wrote:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2012/tables/table_35_leos_fk_with_firearms_type_of_firearm_and_size_of_ammunition_2003-2012.xls

Try getting your facts straight rather than spewing propaganda.

n7axw wrote:I guess I am going to have to weigh in on the other side. I have no desire to deny constitutional rights.

As for the right to seceed, that is now settled, not with legal arguments but in blood at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and so on. Consequently there is no right of sucession, whatever the framers might have intended to start with.

As for the gun arguments, ccould we please have some practical sense? No one, least of all me has any particular objection to guns in the possession of responsible people, but look at what we actually have:

1.criminal gangs in some our cities who actually outgun the police who are trying to apprehend them.

2.Deranged individuals who wander through college campuses and yes, even grade schools shooting kids...easy access to guns guaranteed.

3.people who live in dangerous neighborhoods afraid to let their children out to play for fear they will be shot.

Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don

Nameless, Don is trying to be civil about this. I don't personally agree with the examples he's cited; there are people --- including folks right here in the US, who (in my opinion) should have a better picture of the facts and the disputed facts coming from both sides of this debate --- who would agree with them and with his conclusion. Some of those people have lost sons, daughters, sisters, or brothers to gun violence, and while I reject their logic and their conclusions about how best to deal with this particular political and social questions, I have to respect their right to feel that way.

If you think Don's points are incorrect or that his proposed solution to the problems he feels exist won't work or are legally/morally less than ideal, then tell him so and provide the appropriate links (which you did) to support your view on them. I think we could do that withough accusing him of "spewing propaganda." I might go so far as allowing "unquestioningly accepting propaganda at face value" in this instance but I think "spew" is a rather visceral verb (double entendre intended ) and one we could eschew in civil discourse.

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Ah, but the League would only have the word of the, obviously coerced or quisling, Beowulfan representative that those ships aren't full of Manticoran sailors and marines there to forcibly oversee a rigged and invalid election.

Of course the League could argue the foreign ships aren't under Beowulfan control. (Truth matters not; perception is everything)

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Further, if you will read back over all recent battle scenes, especially those between SLN/RMN, the only force that shows ability to ID ships in more detail than general type at engagement ranges is the RMN. They do that with visuals from recon drones, generally, not by drive signature. In fact, the only way that SLN vessels have positively identified task groups as even "Manty" at long ranges is when the RMN force was choosing to accel/decal at rates impossible to other navies. (Well, not really impossible to several others, but the SLN doesn't get that yet.)

Visuals might give some (unjustified, erroneous) talking points, though not with the Beowulfan public or any Beowulfan daughter Core colonies, where it would really count. But no SLN task force that attempts to approach Beowulf after this swap is in place is ever going to get into visual range, even with lightspeed drones. Don't forget that lend/lease SD(P)s could also control a hefty portion of the already deployed SysDef pods, as well...via Hermes bouys, even.

dreamrider

Actually, the RMN seem to be somewhat better than you give them credit for. They can tell from the drive pattern whether the contact is friend or foe, but not necessarily what class a ship is (as opposed to ship type), at long ago as the first Havenite/Manticoran war.

The Short Victorious War, Chapter 19 wrote:"Captain, I'm picking up a hyper footprint at two-zero-six," Commander Chandler announced. "One drive source, range six-point-niner-five light-minutes. It's too heavy for a courier boat, Ma'am."
Honor looked at the tac officer in faint surprise, but Chandler didn't notice as she queried her computers and worked the contact. Several seconds passed, and then she straightened with a satisfied nod.
"Definitely a Manticoran drive pattern, Ma'am. Looks like a heavy cruiser. I won't know for sure till the light-speed sensors have her."
"Understood. Keep an eye on her, Eve."
"Aye, aye, Ma'am."

Boldface is my emphasis.

RFC is correct and I apologize.

I should not have been so harsh in my criticism of someone who was merely repeating misinformation regarding the police being outgunned by criminals that they would have no way of knowing was untrue unless they had been willing to do some serious research. Even the NRA was reluctant to dispute the claims about police killings during the debate over the Clinton gun ban. Barrett firearms was unusual for being wise enough to accept the caliber specific information that I forwarded to them regarding the myth that the ATF agents killed at Waco were killed with full auto AK-47s and .50 BMG Barrett rifles. (Of course almost no one wanted to take note of the fact that all of the deceased agents were killed with singular gunshot wounds to the head from projectiles of calibers that were consistent with the rifles being employed by the ATF sniper team who somehow managed to fire three dozen rounds without hitting any of the Branch Davidians). The FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports conclusively debunk the myth that inner city gangs and drug dealers are using assault rifles (they almost never use rifles of any type), but few people are willing to Wade through 1,000 plus pages of computer printout. The police would prefer that people not take note of the SHRs because then they might start asking embarrassing questions about why so many inner city police agencies fail to solve the vast majority of homicides that occur in their jurisdictions. Asking such embarrassing questions might lead to the citizenry firing most police or even arresting them for loitering.

Hi Jonathan_S,

Given the vote was two month's or ~60 days after the de bate, and the debate or vote in the EC was in July, maybe August, the Beowulf plebiscite will be in September or October; I wouldn't be surprised that it's already happened, since CoG ended in late October and HA-H was not worried about it.

The loaner's would be a good idea, but I'm not sure they're needed because the BSDF are better especially with far fire control than the SLN has ever suspected.

OTOH, we don't know the size of the 36 BSDF SD's but if around 7 MT, they might tractor 480-508 pods each, enough to have a couple hundred Apollo's each besides 25% for ECM for ~500 BF SD's, which might require ~4 Invictuses quietly supporting the BSDF if the Spindle tactic isn't used.

Given the way the SLN ignores LAC's, the BSDF's might be nearer the RMN's than we expect.

But an RMN fleet popping out after the SLN is stuck inside the H-L could be very interesting as they pop one BF SD after another until they all surrender.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Ah, but the League would only have the word of the, obviously coerced or quisling, Beowulfan representative that those ships aren't full of Manticoran sailors and marines there to forcibly oversee a rigged and invalid election.

Of course the League could argue the foreign ships aren't under Beowulfan control. (Truth matters not; perception is everything)

namelessfly wrote:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2012/tables/table_35_leos_fk_with_firearms_type_of_firearm_and_size_of_ammunition_2003-2012.xls

Try getting your facts straight rather than spewing propaganda.

n7axw wrote:I guess I am going to have to weigh in on the other side. I have no desire to deny constitutional rights.

As for the right to seceed, that is now settled, not with legal arguments but in blood at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and so on. Consequently there is no right of sucession, whatever the framers might have intended to start with.

As for the gun arguments, ccould we please have some practical sense? No one, least of all me has any particular objection to guns in the possession of responsible people, but look at what we actually have:

1.criminal gangs in some our cities who actually outgun the police who are trying to apprehend them.

2.Deranged individuals who wander through college campuses and yes, even grade schools shooting kids...easy access to guns guaranteed.

3.people who live in dangerous neighborhoods afraid to let their children out to play for fear they will be shot.

Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don

How I feel about the matter is how I feel. No propaganda involved. I stand by my post.

Don

I will not rescind my apology, but your response certainly confirms my opinion that you do not allow objective facts to inform your opinions on the gun issue.

The propaganda that the police are outgunned by the criminal gangs is easily refuted by the very extensive, caliber specific data on homicides of police as well as the less specific type classifications in the FBI's SHRs. The caliber specific data in The Chicago Murder Analysis (which has become classified by the Chicago police because it was used to refute their hate mongering propaganda) also confirms that criminal gangs and drug dealers do not favor handguns that "outgun" the police.

In almost all major US cities, the extremely small number of homicides committed with rifles of any type are committed by police, not gang bangers and drug dealers. Many of these ostensibly "justifiable homicides" are extremely problematic. The City of Portland Police have become renown for shooting unarmed people in the back. It seems as if they have hired Uncle Fester of The Adams Family to be their firearms and tactics instructor. The myth that the police are outgunned by the criminals is an extremely useful distraction from excessive use of force by the police.

The "outgunned by the criminals" myth is also useful to distract attention from the abysmally low clearance and arrest rates of most police departments in the nation. Nationally; police faile to solve 2/3s of all homicides. In the most crime ravaged cities, police consistently fail to solve 3/4s of homicides. Clearance rates have failed to increase even as homicide rates have plummeted in recent years which has reduced their case load. We have a problem with murder in the US not because of guns but because the police have declared open season on law abiding citizens.

I for one refuse to forfeit any of my Constitutional rights including the 4th and 5th Amendments as well as the 2nd Amendment because our police have gone AWOL.

Getting back on topic, I think the gradual usurpation of the 2nd Amendment in the US illustrates the probable ease with which the Mandarins will be able toconvincethe Solly public that Beawulf has no right to secede in spite of the very clearly enumerated right in the SL Constitution. The propaganda tactics employed to justify this abrogation will no doubt be the same as the tactics employed on the gun issue.

Topic over.