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Beowulf right to Leave the SL

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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:23 pm

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Commodore Oakius wrote:
n7axw wrote:As for the right to seceed, that is now settled, not with legal arguments but in blood at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and so on. Consequently there is no right of sucession, whatever the framers might have intended to start with.


Actually, and I am sorry to split hairs, but there are current petitions out there to succeed from the US. It is still not illegal. Personally I think it would be wrong to do so, and I think they South was wrong to do so as well, but the legal right was, and technically, still is there. Moral arguments, while right and just, and I support them, don't come down anywhere in the legal realm.

n7axw wrote:As for the gun arguments, ccould we please have some practical sense? No one, least of all me has any particular objection to guns in the possession of responsible people, but look at what we actually have:

1.criminal gangs in some our cities who actually outgun the police who are trying to apprehend them.

2.Deranged individuals who wander through college campuses and yes, even grade schools shooting kids...easy access to guns guaranteed.

3.people who live in dangerous neighborhoods afraid to let their children out to play for fear they will be shot.

Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don


I completely understand and agree however, on your 3 points:
1: Gangs with guns will not be curtailed by limiting gun laws. In fact there are arguments that if certain guns are unable to be sold in the pubilc they are more likely to be found in the blackmarket since they have no legal outlet.
2: You are right deranged individuals should not have access to guns, which is why we have the current laws in place for background checks and mental health checks. And if you are refering to Sandy Hook with the middleschool mentition, they were not his guns but rather his parents,a nd they should have controled them better with his history of mental illness. It could have avoided that tragedy.
3: Dangerous neighborshoods tends to go with gangs, not always, but they tend to, with guns anyway, and that is blackmarket guns bought by criminals, not legally purchased fire arms.

n7axw wrote:I Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don

I am a firm believer that I have the right to do anything I want, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the the life, property and pursuit of happiness of my fellow citizen. My bearing arms or not bearing arms will have no effect on whether our not a neihborhood with gang violence will be safer or not.


We should be dicussing the honorverse here and I'm a bit sorry I involved myself in this discussion. But since I did, I will make one more comment. Morality and law have always been closely inter-related. Law frequently is made because someone believes that something is right and convinces others that something should be legal or illegal.

As for guns, does your comment mean that nothing should be done? Do we really have to tolerate kids on the streets with AK-47s simply to avoid regulation on the right to bear arms? Is a background check to purchase a gun at even a gunshow such an onerous requirment that we simply accept the consequences of the crazies by doing nothing?

You comment that your personally bearing arms would have no impact on these other problems, and to some extent that's true considering you as an individual. But the question as a whole is larger than you, so will you support the needed precautions such as background checks so we can at least sort out the criminals and mentally ill?

Finally you comment that they can get their guns on the black market. To some extent true. But let's drive the black market as deeply underground as possible so that as few people as possible can access it.

Nothing I have said will completely solve the problems. But we might be able to drive the numbers of gun related violence down. Would not the possibility of saving some lives be worth the effort even if we can't save everybody?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:42 pm

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n7axw wrote:As for guns, does your comment mean that nothing should be done? Do we really have to tolerate kids on the streets with AK-47s simply to avoid regulation on the right to bear arms? Is a background check to purchase a gun at even a gunshow such an onerous requirment that we simply accept the consequences of the crazies by doing nothing?

No, they should have SIGs.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by phillies   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:07 am

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This thread seems to have wandered an unusually large amount.

Beowulf making a peaceful secession is much more likely to avoid an overwhelming response from the SL, as opposed to Beowulf seceding and promptly using the Beowulf SDF to smite the local ISLN task force. The analogy in American history is the 8 original states seceding and promptly going to peaceful negotiations rather than shooting at Fort Sumter.

Mind you, much more is likely still a small number, in that the Mandarins wish to retain control.

Secession of Verge states after the RMN smites their OFS garrisons is more likely to be a plot element in the future.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by BobG   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:54 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
This is also something that I played with an Haven's case, when a constitution very similar to that of the United States ceased to apply. In Haven's case, however, the corrupt governing elite had sufficient power to effectively replace the constitution it proposed to violate. In the Solarian League's case, while the Mandarins and the bureaucracy have usurped all the power required to govern, they've never acquired the power to directly legislate or amend the constitution. And they have been very careful not to open the amendment can of worms even through their mouthpiece/puppet members of the Assembly because once the amending genie is out of the bottle, God only knows where it might end. It many ways, much as I personally despise the Mandarins (don't know if that shows in the books ;)), it's hard to blame them. They have this immense legal and regulatory structure, which has accreted like a huge coral reef over centuries and which by and large (and by Solarian standards) has worked remarkably well over that stretch of years. If someone starts changing bits and pieces of it in any major way, then they run the risk of the entire thing flying apart. Some may argue this would be a good thing, on the basis that whatever replaced it had to be better, but no one has repealed the Law of Unintended Consequences in the Solarian League any more than they have repealed it anywhere else. So Kolokoltsov and the others probably deserve to be cut at least a teeny tiny bit of slack when it comes to resisting fundamental change to the system.

How is a Mandarin replaced. If one of them screws up enough, makes enough corporate sponsors P.O.'d, etc, what happens? How do you force out a bureaucrat with no government oversight? Assassination? Or has some other less lethal process evolved? I would guess that if one of the Mandarins needed replacement, the other 4 might have a way to bring pressure to bear. But in the present situation? And it does seem to me that the MA is quite happy with them, so they won't kill them off.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by dreamrider   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:11 am

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The others invite "the new guy" to lunch, because they need someone who knows his field/department.

If forced retirement is perceived as necessary, the other permanent under secretaries advise their puppet principals, who mention it to the puppet prime minister, who dismisses the no-longer-a player informally or formally. And no one in the power structure backs his/her protests, so it happens.

Then the other mandarins invite an appropriately knowledgeable junior to lunch at the big boys table.

If you don't quite get how this works, watch a few episodes of Yes, Prime Minister (BBC, 1986-87)

dreamrider
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:51 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
U.S. Constitution wrote:16: To provide for organizing, arming,



Lol, the second amendment made the militia "User Pays"
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by SWM   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:20 am

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phillies wrote:This thread seems to have wandered an unusually large amount.

Beowulf making a peaceful secession is much more likely to avoid an overwhelming response from the SL, as opposed to Beowulf seceding and promptly using the Beowulf SDF to smite the local ISLN task force. The analogy in American history is the 8 original states seceding and promptly going to peaceful negotiations rather than shooting at Fort Sumter.

Mind you, much more is likely still a small number, in that the Mandarins wish to retain control.

Secession of Verge states after the RMN smites their OFS garrisons is more likely to be a plot element in the future.

There is no SLN task force in Beowulf. Beowulf does not intend to "smite the local ISLN task force." The SLN is sending a task force specifically to disrupt the vote on Beowulf. They are trying to get in their overwhelming response before the vote. If the navy succeeds in getting into orbit, there will be no chance for a peaceful secession. The government will be arrested, an emergency governor will be installed, and the secession vote will be cancelled. If there is any resistance, military force will be used, and they will try to blame the whole thing on Manticoran agitators.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by dreamrider   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:47 am

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Has it occurred to anyone that if Honor and Alice Truman and Elizabeth and Hamish and Benton-Ramerez y Chou are smart (yuk, yuk, yuk, little joke there), then during this interim period when Moriarity is still building, 8th Fleet could just "swap" about 25-30 SD(P)s with the BSDF, as "training vessels", with appropriate Manticoran "instructor cadre" but under Beowulfan captains with 60-80% Beowulfan crews.

With smart paint, it would be trivial to change the hull markings to BSDF (soon to be BSN) colors, and after all, how much familiarization do you NEED to defeat any potential SLN adventure?

Beowulf could even pay a little something for the swap/loan. Maybe Manticore could take it out in trade. Call it, oh, something snappy, like "lend/lease".
Come to think of it, wasn't there some sort of precedent back on Old Earth, something about 50 destroyers?

For that matter, Graysoncould loan them 3-4 "loan" them 3-4 squadrons to "train" on, as a direct deal between Chairman Chou and Protector Benjamin. Maybe send the entire Protector's Own as "teachers", complete with the best possible training aids, SD(P)s and CLACs. Why, Benjamin could even direct that the commander of the Protector's own coordinate and supervise the training mission personally, due to her special relationship with portions of the Beowulf management. (Nah, we haven't seen Alfredo in awhile - let him take this one.)

dreamrider
Last edited by dreamrider on Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:55 am

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dreamrider wrote:Has it occurred to anyone that if Honor and Alice Truman and Elizabeth and Hamish and Benton-Ramerez y Chou are smart (yuk, yuk, yuk, little joke there), then during this interim period when Moriarity is still building, 8th Fleet could just "swap" about 25-30 SD(P)s with the BSDF, as "training vessels", with appropriate Manticoran "instructor cadre" but under Beowulfan captains with 60-80% Beowulfan crews.

With smart paint, it would be trivial to change the hull markings to BSDF (soon to be BSN) colors, and after all, how much familiarization do you NEED to defeat any potential SLN adventure?

Beowulf could even pay a little something for the swap/loan. Maybe Manticore could take it out in trade. Call it, oh, something snappy, like "lend/lease".
Come to think of it, wasn't there some sort of precedent back on Old Earth, something about 50 destroyers?

dreamrider


The problem would be that emission signatures and hull shapes would show that the vessels are Manticoran, and that would probably be enough for the Mandarins to scream about illegal or coerced votes.
I mean they'll scream it anyway, but having physical evidence would make it so much more believable.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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Re: Beowulf right to Leave the SL
Post by dreamrider   » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:08 am

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That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Further, if you will read back over all recent battle scenes, especially those between SLN/RMN, the only force that shows ability to ID ships in more detail than general type at engagement ranges is the RMN. They do that with visuals from recon drones, generally, not by drive signature. In fact, the only way that SLN vessels have positively identified task groups as even "Manty" at long ranges is when the RMN force was choosing to accel/decal at rates impossible to other navies. (Well, not really impossible to several others, but the SLN doesn't get that yet.)

Visuals might give some (unjustified, erroneous) talking points, though not with the Beowulfan public or any Beowulfan daughter Core colonies, where it would really count. But no SLN task force that attempts to approach Beowulf after this swap is in place is ever going to get into visual range, even with lightspeed drones. Don't forget that lend/lease SD(P)s could also control a hefty portion of the already deployed SysDef pods, as well...via Hermes bouys, even.

dreamrider
Last edited by dreamrider on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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