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The MAlign all-in response

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The MAlign all-in response
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:56 pm

cthia
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You knew it was coming. I've been trying my darndest to get an all-in response. Has the time finally come? Do we think that the GA is going to throw a one-two knockout punch or will the MA be a worthy adversary. If the latter, I don't see how they can afford to let the GA strike first. What form could an all-in response take? I say find out where Bolthole is, destroy it. Initiate a few well-placed tac-witches to pull an Oops, grand scale.

Time for all good tacticians and strategists to step forward, or nons to step backward.



.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by Scuffles   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:03 pm

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cthia wrote: Initiate a few well-placed tac-witches to pull an Oops, grand scale.


If your plan requires magic to work I'd say it's a bad plan.

Let me put my Detweiler hat on for a moment.

Alright, don't I look stylish. Here's the plan:

Do nothing.

Don't look at me like that. I'll explain a little. We can't defeat Manticore in a straight up fight. We can't defeat Haven in a straight up fight. We can't even defeat Grayson in a straight up fight. Therefore, we must avoid getting into a straight up fight. Just because we king hit them doesn't mean we need to stand there and exchange punches because that they didn't fall down.

This is fine, because ultimately our plan doesn't require us to militarily dominate the galaxy, it requires us to politically dominate the galaxy. Ultimately all we want is to be able to work our genetic wizardry to uplift all of humanity. That doesn't mean we have to shoot all the dissenters, we just have to make sure they don't shoot us while we're working on convincing everyone. The plan didn't involve Manticore still existing and it certainly didn't involve them having an alliance that includes all the big guns in the galaxy but that's the reality we have to live with for now.

Manticore and friends hate our guts and would happily shoot us all, but that's okay because they don't know who we are or where we live. All they know is that we exist and that we used to be on Mesa. That's why we pulled a Houdini.

The most important thing we needed from this phase of our plan is for the Solarian League to fall to bits. That's in motion so we're in good shape. We don't need to take any military actions that drag us out into the light for all to see because that would be a disaster.

We just need to do what we were going to do anyway - quietly gather allies in a conventional manner. Presumably our members extend a helping hand towards any neighbours that need assistance as things go wonky for the league. Presumably we stir up some trouble (covertly) to make sure that neighbours that we want on side need our help. Then we let things settle down while we very slowly and carefully flex our new-found political muscles to very slowly change this ridiculous attitude towards genetic engineering. It's still a plan that spans centuries, no need to act precipitously.

Okay, let me take off this ridiculous hat.

The alignment needs to not fight the Grand Alliance right now. Any direct action they take against said Alliance increases the chances of getting found out. Assuming that Houdini is clean (It probably won't be, but they need it to be) then they should not look to inflict further damage on Manticore because they don't have the capability to destroy the Alliance's military forces right now. That can change with time and for now they have time.

Assuming that they got away with Houdini. :?
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:29 pm

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Fundamentally, the MA needs to continue R&D and produce effective spiders. Along with MDMs and FTL comms, probably micro reactors too. Time is on their side.

The other thing they need to do is find Bolthole and do the recon needed to add it to their list of places that might need to have a really bad day.

The SL will likely collapse given the push that was made, so they don't need to do much. Though it would be kind of nice for them if someone was to obliterate the industrial capability of Beowulf that the GA is so counting on, as long as it was done by the SLN (more or less..) pursuant to that idiotic plan to use the SLN to prevent succession. In this case collateral damage is perfectly OK.
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Go For Broke!
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:13 am

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A MAlignment all in response? An all out offence, but done sneaky. Consider Oyster Bay and how well it worked. Now do it again, but against all the key GA PLANETS all at the same time. Also do it as nasty as you possibly can.

Stealthed high cee kinetic strikes against the actual top 10 planets of the GA. All of them. All of them time on target if possible. Ignore all the treaties. Kill as many people as possible. Destroy the planets biospheres.

It may take some time to get all the pieces into place to try to pull this off and it might NOT be 100% successful, but even if partially done it would knock the GA out of an offence. Then let the Sollies do the dirty work for the MAlignment.

It also may not knock out the Peeps. But it would take away most of the offensive muscle of the combined GA fleet. Damage control on your home planet? What is left of the Peeps would then have their hands full with the Sollies. Not nice!

Mean and nasty. No rules. All in. HB of CJ (old coot) LT.CM.
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Re: Go For Broke!
Post by Scuffles   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:21 am

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HB of CJ wrote:A MAlignment all in response? An all out offence, but done sneaky. Consider Oyster Bay and how well it worked. Now do it again, but against all the key GA PLANETS all at the same time. Also do it as nasty as you possibly can.

Stealthed high cee kinetic strikes against the actual top 10 planets of the GA. All of them. All of them time on target if possible. Ignore all the treaties. Kill as many people as possible. Destroy the planets biospheres.

It may take some time to get all the pieces into place to try to pull this off and it might NOT be 100% successful, but even if partially done it would knock the GA out of an offence. Then let the Sollies do the dirty work for the MAlignment.

It also may not knock out the Peeps. But it would take away most of the offensive muscle of the combined GA fleet. Damage control on your home planet? What is left of the Peeps would then have their hands full with the Sollies. Not nice!

Mean and nasty. No rules. All in. HB of CJ (old coot) LT.CM.


This is a terrible idea. It effectively announces to the entire galaxy that Manticore wasn't lying and that the grand Mesan conspiracy they were telling everybody about is real.

Plus it makes you the number 1 enemy of humanity. Do you think that the SLN is going to still be focused on Manticore after you just go and casually kill 50 billion people (or more)? Congratulations, you just united the entire galaxy against a common foe and singlehandedly prevented the breakup of the league. How's that plan of yours looking now?

Plus the deadliest fleet in the galaxy still exists because you just killed their planets, not them, and they know who did it. They might not know where you are yet but you can bet they're never going to stop looking.
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:42 am

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They might, might, consider doing that to one of the main GA planets, not a capitol. Sphinx maybe.

With a little planning they could use such an act to completely splinter the League, and maybe insert one of their RF systems into the alliance.
(Other advantage to Sphinx is the Treecats, if the MAlign are starting to be worried by them)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by Scuffles   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:43 am

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Yay, now we're committing genocide to achieve things that are already going to happen without us committing genocide! :roll:
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Re: Go For Broke!
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:34 am

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HB of CJ wrote:It also may not knock out the Peeps. But it would take away most of the offensive muscle of the combined GA fleet. Damage control on your home planet? What is left of the Peeps would then have their hands full with the Sollies. Not nice!


What's your reasoning behind this? There are millions of uniformed Manticorans and Havenites not on a planet. Given that Haven still has much larger crews, you're left with between five to ten million naval and marine personnel manning up to a thousand SD(P)s - given the time it'd take to build enough spider ships and deploy them for a simultaneous strike on this scale, the GA will surely get a fair amount of hardware deployed - and many lighter vessels.

Every last one of which is now dedicated to a mission of pure vengeance. They will show up at Sol, demand the surrender of all files and search relentlessly for the MA crumbs. They will sell their services to the Andermani, Maya/Erewhonese in exchange for the help they'd need to rebuild.

They will make it a holy mission to discover the Mesan Alignment and end it. The situation is already bad enough for them and, as other users have already pointed out, Houndini is working. Their strategy to disappear hit a few bumps but has succeeded. Their best option is to proceed as planned, adjusting to dismiss those MA rumours as a preposterous conspiracy theory. For that matter, the SL itself is already doing that!

IMO, the MA's downfall will likely come from the other Jack McBrydes nestled inside their organisation. Once they've reached Darius, the GAULs will leave them and these extremely smart, genetically engineered geniuses will act in ways their Mesan 'designers' never expected them to.
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:17 am

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Scuffles, I meant to add if they needed the collapse sped up.
In case they think the GA might become too strong.
Remember these are arrogant maniacs who honestly believe they can so it without being caught at it and have already killed millions in sneak attacks. From killing millions to killing billions is nothing.

All that stops them is worry about how it affects their plans, and it's getting to the point where they need the break up to happen sooner rather than later. The balance of breaking the league versus the sympathy it would create in Manticore's favour.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: The MA all-in response
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:14 pm

cthia
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Scuffles wrote:
cthia wrote: Initiate a few well-placed tac-witches to pull an Oops, grand scale.


If your plan requires magic to work I'd say it's a bad plan.

Let me put my Detweiler hat on for a moment.

Alright, don't I look stylish. Here's the plan:

Do nothing.

Don't look at me like that. I'll explain a little. We can't defeat Manticore in a straight up fight. We can't defeat Haven in a straight up fight. We can't even defeat Grayson in a straight up fight. Therefore, we must avoid getting into a straight up fight. Just because we king hit them doesn't mean we need to stand there and exchange punches because that they didn't fall down.

This is fine, because ultimately our plan doesn't require us to militarily dominate the galaxy, it requires us to politically dominate the galaxy. Ultimately all we want is to be able to work our genetic wizardry to uplift all of humanity. That doesn't mean we have to shoot all the dissenters, we just have to make sure they don't shoot us while we're working on convincing everyone. The plan didn't involve Manticore still existing and it certainly didn't involve them having an alliance that includes all the big guns in the galaxy but that's the reality we have to live with for now.

Manticore and friends hate our guts and would happily shoot us all, but that's okay because they don't know who we are or where we live. All they know is that we exist and that we used to be on Mesa. That's why we pulled a Houdini.

The most important thing we needed from this phase of our plan is for the Solarian League to fall to bits. That's in motion so we're in good shape. We don't need to take any military actions that drag us out into the light for all to see because that would be a disaster.

We just need to do what we were going to do anyway - quietly gather allies in a conventional manner. Presumably our members extend a helping hand towards any neighbours that need assistance as things go wonky for the league. Presumably we stir up some trouble (covertly) to make sure that neighbours that we want on side need our help. Then we let things settle down while we very slowly and carefully flex our new-found political muscles to very slowly change this ridiculous attitude towards genetic engineering. It's still a plan that spans centuries, no need to act precipitously.

Okay, let me take off this ridiculous hat.

The alignment needs to not fight the Grand Alliance right now. Any direct action they take against said Alliance increases the chances of getting found out. Assuming that Houdini is clean (It probably won't be, but they need it to be) then they should not look to inflict further damage on Manticore because they don't have the capability to destroy the Alliance's military forces right now. That can change with time and for now they have time.

Assuming that they got away with Houdini. :?




WHAT IS THIS???!


Besides the most incredibly insightful yarn of a thread I've read in a while. Your analysis is another refreshing post, and probably as close to spot on as you can get...without actually leaving a spot. Kudos!

But...

I don't wear hats. Allow me a paci-fier. (Pacifiers allow one to get away with...murder.)

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaa I wan't my all-in response. Mommy!"

Now that I have your attention (you don't want this big baby crying in the aisles of the local grocer) and you've picked me up and are carrying me on your hip (aren't I a cute baby waxing on his pacy?) I'm liable to get what I want...

I'm feeling the pressure that the MA must also be feeling. Their plan has caught a few snags and just like a woman's hose you can't just sit and do nothing and watch that snag develop into a full blown run. That plan was one of the most brilliant and flawlessly executed as any in the entire Honorverse. Including Honor's verse! Too bad there's simply no way to plan for uninvited guests...that Demon Murphy. And Murphy has let the cat out of the bag. Now that the GA knows, they're going to be sniffing like a well trained hell hound. The Malignment will be found and whether they can duke it out with the GA will be a moot point then. So, be the aggressor, create the stage and give yourself home field advantage or just sit around and wait to be dead. Doing nothing would only be a good plan if so much hadn't been let out of the bag. That ship has sailed.

On to the unfair part of my analysis. RFC has announced that there will only be one or two more mainstream novels with Honor as the central character. While there's nothing preventing him from carrying on and stretching out this MA thing, textev has hinted of Honor riding helm on that vengeance mission. And if RFC doesn't deliver on that hint, I'm going to begin a planet wide petition to initiate the first automobile-like recall of a book...to write an alternate ending!

That being said, the perpetrators can hear the pendulum swinging and the clock ticking. That's why I said now might finally be time for an all-in.

This is fine, because ultimately our plan doesn't require us to militarily dominate the galaxy, it requires us to politically dominate the galaxy.

Unless that plan has gone awry and your leaders have written a check their asses can't cash by pissing off the three most militarily advanced nations who have blood in their eyes and missiles up their sleeves. And when they find you and you don't have military dominance, they're going to shove a starship right up your wedge.

So I still say go for broke. Pull out all the stops. Set the nannies loose without reservation. Assassinate. Don't procrastinate. Kill. Don't be killed. And for reader's sake, give us some action to look forward to. If everyone is going to be reasonable, then that's Utopia not the Honorverse.

This still doesn't discount much of what you said Scuffles. I just hope that most of what you said has already taken place, in storybook fashion, behind the scenes.

Baby just wants another epic battle, a few throw downs. At least a few skirmishes or...scuffles?


What's this in my mouth?...spits out pacifier.


Cries for it back.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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