Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:34 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

TheMonster wrote:
cthia wrote:I am sure my thinking is flawed. My problem is the inability to bracket the fact that an untapped resource of warm Masadan bodies are just spinning on its axis in the Endicott system.
The Endicott system is a protectorate of the SEM, so there's an RMN and RMA presence. We don't have a lot of textev about it, but it's reasonable to assume that it has decent sensor array coverage to protect against the Peeps mounting such an operation. Granted, this was before Theisman shot Saint-Just and ended any possibility that a Havenite would work with those crazy bastards again, but it's unlikely that those arrays would have been redeployed elsewhere due to a changing threat assessment. (It's more likely that some sensor platforms that needed repair were instead cannibalized for parts to keep others going, and the remaining functional systems rearranged to maintain good coverage with their reduced numbers, but that wouldn't represent a massive draw-down.)

So the question is whether the MAlign really thinks they could get graser torps and/or stealthed missile pods into position and take out the RMN ships before demanding the surrender of the RMA forces holding Masada. Then could they work with the Faithful?

I'd wonder whether the MAlign had sleeper agents there, like the RA leaders, but Masada is not exactly the sort of place you'd think you could just slip a foreigner into.

Actually Monster, you've just put it all into perspective for me. I completely failed to take into account the RMA forces there. I always just assumed there were no forces, that the Masadans would demand their leaving. But the Masadans wouldn't have been in a position to demand anything would they? And they certainly couldn't be trusted and left to their own devices.

Now that you've arranged the info blocks in my head, perhaps I'll no longer experience that nagging feeling of an untapped resource of Masadan bodies just sitting there. They aren't just sitting there. They're being watched.

Nu uh, I don't think sleeper agents could be slipped into Masada either. I don't think a Grayson could be slipped into Masada! Unless, of course, some unanticipated nanotech conditioning is involved, which I get the feeling that nanotech just doesn't work like that.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:30 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers. Essentially all of their naval crewmen were killed 18 years ago, either in the attacks on Grayson or in defense of Masada when White Haven came to call. Manticore certainly has not let them rebuild their navy. And any surviving naval personnel are 18 years out of practice--and they didn't have prolong.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:41 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

SWM wrote:One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers. Essentially all of their naval crewmen were killed 18 years ago, either in the attacks on Grayson or in defense of Masada when White Haven came to call. Manticore certainly has not let them rebuild their navy. And any surviving naval personnel are 18 years out of practice--and they didn't have prolong.

And let there be more light!
Of course though SWM, all else being equal the lack of training could have easily been overcome by the MA. Take a crop of Masadans out to the MA Bolthole, and train them on 'acquired' SL ships. 18 years is an awful amount of training time. They don't need them to be tactical geniuses, just grist for the mill.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:48 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers. Essentially all of their naval crewmen were killed 18 years ago, either in the attacks on Grayson or in defense of Masada when White Haven came to call. Manticore certainly has not let them rebuild their navy. And any surviving naval personnel are 18 years out of practice--and they didn't have prolong.

And let there be more light!
Of course though SWM, all else being equal the lack of training could have easily been overcome by the MA. Take a crop of Masadans out to the MA Bolthole, and train them on 'acquired' SL ships. 18 years is an awful amount of training time. They don't need them to be tactical geniuses, just grist for the mill.


I doubt that they have prolong at all. Grayson didn't prior to alliance with Manticore. As for what to do with Masada, remove the garrison from the surface, occupy the orbitals and deny them anything more advanced than fixed wing aircraft. I wince at what happens to the women under that scenario, but alliance can't be St John the rescuer for everybody.

Finally what happens to Masada needs to be Masada's responsibility.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:54 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4467
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

SWM wrote:One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers.


They don't have any explicitly trained Naval personnnel, but Masada certainly does have spacers -- aside from the Templetons who turned pirate and left Masada, the occupation has encouraged Masadan space industry:

Ashes of Victory
Chapter Forty-Four wrote:
...Those men, like Bledsoe and his crew, were the reforged Sword of God. It was a different Sword, one which must be wielded in a more surreptitious fashion, but its edge was even keener, for the dross of the old Sword had been refined away in the holocaust of conquest. But there must be others behind the Sword, the men who supplied the sinews to make it effective, and those men had been compelled to pretend to embrace the corruption. They'd taken advantage of the new "industrial partnerships" the occupiers and their collaborationist puppet government had offered to entice the unwary. In many cases, they'd funded their own sides of the "partnerships" with tiny portions of the enormous wealth the Council of Elders had tucked away over the centuries, and none of the apostate or their foreign allies had realized their true purpose....


There is a LOT more exposition about the occupation and Sword of the Faithful in chapter Forty-four; far more than would be prudent to C&P, but it answers most of the questions raised about the occupation of Masada and just how easy it would be for the MAlign to contact them.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:59 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4467
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

n7axw wrote:I doubt that they have prolong at all. Grayson didn't prior to alliance with Manticore. As for what to do with Masada, remove the garrison from the surface, occupy the orbitals and deny them anything more advanced than fixed wing aircraft. ...


See previous post about the wealth of information in AoV chapter forty-four. There is very little Manticoran or Grayson on the ground. Prolong is available on Masada.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:37 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Good catch, Harold. Yes, it appears there may be some Masadan spacers taking advantage of industrial partnerships.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:45 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers. Essentially all of their naval crewmen were killed 18 years ago, either in the attacks on Grayson or in defense of Masada when White Haven came to call. Manticore certainly has not let them rebuild their navy. And any surviving naval personnel are 18 years out of practice--and they didn't have prolong.

And let there be more light!
Of course though SWM, all else being equal the lack of training could have easily been overcome by the MA. Take a crop of Masadans out to the MA Bolthole, and train them on 'acquired' SL ships. 18 years is an awful amount of training time. They don't need them to be tactical geniuses, just grist for the mill.

That sort of makes sense, but the Alignment does not seem to feel the need of getting that manpower. The only people living on Darius are people who were born there or people deep inside the onion. The Alignment has used catspaws before, but they have always kept them at arm's length. The "grist for the mill" have never been brought into the secrets of the Alignment. Generally they have been told they were working for one or another of the Mesan megacorporations. The Alignment has essentially an entire planet of billions of genetic slaves brainwashed into building an enormous military construction complex, and they can make more as fast as the crèches can handle it. They really don't need to bring a few thousand disenfranchised Masadan zealots to Darius.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:28 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

SWM wrote:One other point about the Masadans: they don't have any trained spacers. Essentially all of their naval crewmen were killed 18 years ago, either in the attacks on Grayson or in defense of Masada when White Haven came to call. Manticore certainly has not let them rebuild their navy. And any surviving naval personnel are 18 years out of practice--and they didn't have prolong.

Cthia wrote:
And let there be more light!
Of course though SWM, all else being equal the lack of training could have easily been overcome by the MA. Take a crop of Masadans out to the MA Bolthole, and train them on 'acquired' SL ships. 18 years is an awful amount of training time. They don't need them to be tactical geniuses, just grist for the mill.

SWM wrote:
That sort of makes sense, but the Alignment does not seem to feel the need of getting that manpower. The only people living on Darius are people who were born there or people deep inside the onion. The Alignment has used catspaws before, but they have always kept them at arm's length. The "grist for the mill" have never been brought into the secrets of the Alignment. Generally they have been told they were working for one or another of the Mesan megacorporations. The Alignment has essentially an entire planet of billions of genetic slaves brainwashed into building an enormous military construction complex, and they can make more as fast as the crèches can handle it. They really don't need to bring a few thousand disenfranchised Masadan zealots to Darius.

Actually, in glow of the light you and Monster shed on it, it doesn't make sense at all. (Thanks for being nice about it :D )

Then Harold came along and pointed out how easy the MA could contact Masada. But with the RMA forces present that Monster pointed out, I no longer think such an operation would be prudent.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:51 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Being consumed with thoughts of Masada as of late, I thought about the breakthrough in research Allison made while on Grayson concerning reversing the disparity in normal births. If I'm correct that treatment hasn't been shared with the Masadans. Do you think Masada would accept, or think it blasphemous? It seems Dr. Harrington, bound by the Hippocratic Oath, would want to share. If the Masadans would want the treatment it would probably represent a conflict of interest for Allison-honoring the Hippocratic Oath or 'sleeping with the enemy'.

Edit:
Shared by a dozen or so Doctors in Romania, friends of mine.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse