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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Fox2!   » Wed May 29, 2019 9:27 am

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One last thought -

"Never go in against a Salamander when death is on the line"


Borrowed from some Sicilian in a movie about Pirates and Princesses to be wed.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed May 29, 2019 10:55 am

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Fox2! wrote:
cthia wrote:
Another thing that has cropped up is this fact: In Honor failing to inform Burdette of her secret, she might possibly have prevented Burdette from declining to fight, thus possibly saving his soul, if, indeed, he was out of alignment with Tester's wishes. Much like the idiots who were responsible for the death of Reverend Hanks and the collapse of The Mueller Middle School, had a chance to repent. And, iinm, one of them did ask Tester for forgiveness.


Burdette, by his thoughts, words and actions, thought that the Tester had delivered the foreign born infidel harlot to His judgement through Burdette. He just knew that his superior (tournament) skills would allow him not just to defeat Honor, but to thoroughly destroy her, and through her defeat, not only overturn Benjamin's death sentence against him, but reverse the Mayhew Restoration of the Protector's primacy among the Keys (and the deprecation of the Key's influence).

Burdette did not understand that Honor truly is an incarnation of Shiva, the Destroyer of Worlds (and not just because a laser head missile resembles Edward Teller's Shiva nuclear pumped laser missile defense system). She (and Benjamin) destroyed the existing structure of Grayson. She restored Marsh to its people, destroying the pirate nest. And she (and Hamish, of course) established the conditions necessary for Tom Theissman to overthrow the Committee for Public Safety under Oscar St. Just.

The Salamander is always found where the fire is hottest. On that day, the fire was hottest in the Keys. Burdette didn't recognize that he was just the fuel for the fire.

Who am I to argue with such eloquence, and I agree.

But!

If only she would have opened her can of whipass—without also opening a can of worms by appearing to cheat, without leaving a question or uncertainty of whether she cheated, without leaving a thread that could unravel and fuel a Constitutional crisis and also unravel the very foundation of Grayson.

I can't help from being a holdout in one respect. Honor didn't make the right decision overall concerning Grayson. All of Grayson, and not just the faction she likes. In the spirit of her gesture while aboard the Andermani warship of not wanting to risk disrespect, a possibility of a misunderstanding, embarrassing her star nation or many other yatta yatta yattas, Honor should have divulged her secret, or, at this point in time, simply secured Nimitz, to remove all doubt and fuel for future repercussions.

This is Honor, every decision she's made has never been for her own benefit or concern. Personally, I'm disappointed that Honor didn't say to herself, "I'm going to dismember this imbecile with one hand tied behind my back, and certainly without my link to Nimitz. That way, no one can later cause pain or grief on Grayson."

Honor has a knack for seeing clearly and removing all obstacles even when her own life is in danger. Her actual decision wasn't a characteristic Harrington decision. But like I said, I personally take her physical and emotional condition into consideration. Yet it still must be said, for truth and the Grayson way, that emotional distress and physical injuries does not excuse making a bad political decision. Neither would it be dismissed by the navy in such cases.

Don't make the same mistake as you always make guys. I'm not pointing out Honor's error for my own sake or to berate her. As you always do, don't make this personal about me. Shamelessly, I'd keep her secret. Though, pointing out her boo boo could keep her and Benjamin from being blindsided in the future. You're all insane if you don't think this secret would be of value to the Opposition.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Fox2!   » Wed May 29, 2019 1:03 pm

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Fox2! wrote:One last thought -

"Never go in against a Salamander when death is on the line"


Borrowed from some Sicilian in a movie about Pirates and Princesses to be wed.


A couple of thoughts more. Don't know if these have been discussed previously.

Honor, unlike Burdette, has been in life or death circumstances for her entire adult life, both combat and non-combat related. For much of that time, she has worn the white beret, or sat in the Tac Officer's hot seat. Burdette has not.

Honor, unlike Burdette, has actually been dama-a-mano with a person determined to personally kill her. And emerged victorious. Yes, the formality of a Manticoran duel, even under the Ellington protocol, are different from the situation she faced on the floor of the Keys. The crease is not important when you are responding to a command to "Fire". It is a matter of life and death when crossing katanas with lethal intent.

It was stated in one of the early books that Honor had a high kinesthetic sense. She knew where she was, where her limbs were, and how they were moving. Her tree cat name, after all, is Dances On Clouds. I expect (with the usual cautions), with all of her time studying coup d' vitesse, that she could also tell when Burdette committed to his move, even without her link to Nimitz.

Burdette intended to put on a Master Class in the Grayson Katana, humiliating the novice swordswoman (which itself was unworthy of a Master in any art) and ending with Honor lying dead on the floor. Honor had only one goal: Burdette dead at her feet (ok, two: her still standing). The simpler goal allowed her to focus on that one thing. And concentrate on the gestalt that would tell her when Burdette was vulnerable, as he shifted his entire being over to offense. Her single stroke sliced him open from hip to shoulder, then shortened him by a head on the reverse.

God did, indeed, defend the Right.

(Edited to correct Honor's 'cat name)
Last edited by Fox2! on Wed May 29, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm

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Kenjitsu has the objective of killing the opponent. It’s not big on defense. Iirc, the book of five rings had a note that every move you make should be intended to injure your opponent. No pure defense.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu May 30, 2019 12:58 pm

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Tackling a few things in my distressed Inbox . . .

Murder

A few people charge that Burdette's decision to challenge is nothing but attempted murder. I find that ironic because Burdette was exercising his rights, thus it cannot in any form or fashion be considered as attempted murder, regardless of how despicable, ungentlemanly or unfair it may appear to those of us who love Honor. OTOH, cheating in the duel by introducing a secret weapon that could undoubtedly ensure Honor's victory could be charged as being tantamount to murder, certainly by the Opposition. Much as if Pavel Young had succeeded in killing Honor by cheating, it would have been considered murder. The Opposition simply needs to get in the head of the citizens of Grayson. Regardless of how well Honor is loved, it does not compare to the average Grayson's love for God. And rightly so.


God's will be done

There are many posts which conclude that God's ultimate will was done. Perhaps TFLYTSNBN captured the notion perfectly . . .
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?


Firstly, "backward theocracy?" That's a bit much coming from an offworlder. It represents the very views and dangers which Burdette's faction fights, and warns against. Infidels judge by blindness and material gain, and not by truth.

At any rate, what I'm trying to convey is this fact: In Honor's and Benjamin's actions acting as the present day Moses leading Grayson out of the bondage of darkness, each of them -- just like Moses -- made mistakes. Either of them could be punished for it, just like Moses. God wants things done righteously and according to his will and what is right. In other words, in God's eyes, the ends DOES NOT justify the means, lest God's perfection be tainted.

PeterZ wrote:My counter-counter is that at some point God gets what He wants. That may or may not be what an individual human wants. Honor's perspective recognizes this better that Burdette's.

Indeed, at some point, in spite of the imperfections and mistakes of man, God gets what He wants. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that God gets what he wants in the manner that he wants it.

Just like with Honor, God gave Moses great power as well. He had a staff which was far more powerful than any other. Moses was also in God's favor. That does not mean that Moses could do no wrong in pursuit of God's wishes to have his enslaved people set free. Moses did wrong by breaking the Ten Commandments. Moses did wrong by tapping the rock twice with his staff to summon water, instead of doing what he was told to do. In God's eyes, THE ENDS DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. As a result, Moses and the freed slaves were punished.

What God actually commanded Moses to do was to "speak" to the rock to get the water, not use his staff. People scoff at this passage because they don't see the big deal. Perhaps it isn't important or necessary for humanity to "see" the big deal, if indeed we don't. God has a God's-eye view of future events and what will happen considering all of life's alternate endings through cause and effect, and, He has plans. Personally, I would conclude that God wanted to make it crystal clear that Moses was exercising God's will by being able to "speak" into existence what he wanted -- without the use of a staff, which the Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate. God wanted everyone to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, where the real power lie, and who was behind Moses' miracles. God knew the sorcerers wouldn't be able to duplicate "speaking" things into existence, as God himself created the universe. Moses blew the opportunity to remove all doubt. As did Honor. Honor left a shadow of a doubt.

In the same light, removing Burdette's head with her "staff" alone, without her link to Nimitz, would not have tainted the certainty that God's wishes had indeed been fulfilled. It would have been carved in truth, instead of in uncertainty, or in, God forbid, the charge of deceit. Or, in, God forbid, the charge of murder. Little issues make a difference because man can make a mountain out of a molehill. Conversely, man can mistake a mountain for a molehill. Again, Honor left a shadow of a doubt.


Duty to God or Mammon

Vince wrote:From your posts on the forum, I don't think you have assimilated the idea of Duty, Honor, Country as practiced by the military forces (both the RMN in the Honorverse and today's armed forces in the real world). Duty is ranked above Honor, which in turn is ranked above Country. It was Honor's DUTY to engage ‘The Brotherhood of Maccabeus’ assassination team and protect the Grayson Head of State, and his family in The Honor of the Queen, just as it was her DUTY to face Burdette in the duel in Flag in Exile.

It would have been a grave* DISHONOR (for the RMN, the Queen of Manticore, and most of all themselves**) for Honor and Nimitz to stand aside, fail to defend the Grayson Head of State and his family against the assassination attempt, and let both the Protector and his family as well as themselves be killed. It would have been an equally grave* DISHONOR (for the Protector, Honor's steaders, the law-abiding citizens of Grayson and most of all themselves**) for Honor and Nimitz to stand aside and not face Burdette in the duel in Council of Steadholders. All make it fair.

At some point, failing to oppose evil becomes evil. That point where failing to oppose evil becomes acquiescence, or even compliance to evil. You come to a point where you have to choose. And the choices you have are not always between black or white, good or bad. A lot of the times you are confronted with having to choose the least bad option. SNIP

I just might have a chance to get through to you. I do understand those concepts, Vince. As they are applied to the military. But what about when they are applied to a higher authority than the military? GOD. What is the Christian to do when his orders goes against every God-given bone in his body? At what point does it become evil for Burdette NOT to confront what he thinks is evil. One cannot pass one's test if one does not take the test. Did Burdette fail his test? Or was Benjamin's illegal and ungodly Restoration set up to fail?

Likewise, blind obedience to the ungodly orders of man, or Protector, may get you convicted at the Pearly Gates.

Comparatively, the two scales of justice are woefully unbalanced.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Howard J Howe   » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:43 pm

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As in many things the ends can not be tainted by the means or the ends are corrupted by the means and dammed.

Do something strait on not through the back door.

Have a plan everyone can work from for the betterment of all.

Burdett wasn't about Gods will he was about secular power cloaked in piety and hypocrisy, he was willing to sin to regain that power. He death was just and legal under Greyson law.

I have no problem with Faith and Politic's working toward a common goal. But neither should dictate to the other. They should give well reasoned and moral arguments for or against an course of action or goal and must be based not on just what was done in the past but what needs to be done for everyone. Not in broad terms such as the greater good, but the details of the subject one is talking about.

And for everyone's sake keep the lawyers on a leash. They mean well but like accountants they can strangle they very thing they wish to protect.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by stewart   » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:42 pm

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A Few Thoughts --

Post UH --
Now that the Solaran OFS is dissolved, can anyone see the likelihood of a Grayson Diplomatic and Merchant mission to Saltash or Tiberian ?

Both planets have a strong (although different) faith components to them and Abigail apparently made a very favorable first impression at both.
I suspect Gov.Duenas is out of a job at this point. Perhaps Brother Madison from Grayson can offer his services to mediate a resolution between the Republic of MacPhee and the Republic of Lochore since both have experienced the gentle hand of external master.
I know we are talking about Scots and Irish, but (almost) anything is possible.

-- Stewart
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:20 am

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stewart wrote:A Few Thoughts --

Post UH --
Now that the Solaran OFS is dissolved, can anyone see the likelihood of a Grayson Diplomatic and Merchant mission to Saltash or Tiberian ?

Both planets have a strong (although different) faith components to them and Abigail apparently made a very favorable first impression at both.
I suspect Gov.Duenas is out of a job at this point. Perhaps Brother Madison from Grayson can offer his services to mediate a resolution between the Republic of MacPhee and the Republic of Lochore since both have experienced the gentle hand of external master.
I know we are talking about Scots and Irish, but (almost) anything is possible.

-- Stewart

Diplomatic in what way? To spread the faith? I don't see Grayson as a society who wants to spread their religion. Or, traditionally, to spread the word of God. To do so, would mean having to invite off-worlders to come and worship in their faith. I don't see Grayson wanting to dilute its faith with the ideologies of off-world infidels.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:31 am

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Howard J Howe wrote:As in many things the ends can not be tainted by the means or the ends are corrupted by the means and dammed.

Do something strait on not through the back door.

Have a plan everyone can work from for the betterment of all.

Burdett wasn't about Gods will he was about secular power cloaked in piety and hypocrisy, he was willing to sin to regain that power. He death was just and legal under Greyson law.

I have no problem with Faith and Politic's working toward a common goal. But neither should dictate to the other. They should give well reasoned and moral arguments for or against an course of action or goal and must be based not on just what was done in the past but what needs to be done for everyone. Not in broad terms such as the greater good, but the details of the subject one is talking about.

And for everyone's sake keep the lawyers on a leash. They mean well but like accountants they can strangle they very thing they wish to protect.

Welcome to the forums!

It is customary to offer a virtual beverage of your choice. Old Tilman is quite popular, though I suggest cocoa.

Your first post is very appreciated. The fact that the very often controversial ramblings and musings thread and this present can-o-worms, is appealing enough to draw you in is telling. I've tried laboriously to convey to many other posters how the Opposition, certainly the Opposition, would find the contents of this can-o-worms very very appealing, very very interesting, and very very telling.

Do enjoy the forums!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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