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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:47 pm

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cthia wrote:Latest development raging about the globe in my inner circle . . .

If Honor had been a new piece of technology, let's say an indiscernible android on the scale of Star Trek's Data, would it have been only fair to spill the beans to Burdette then? Hmm, Honor did have an android-like arm that had to be "governed down" during the best of times.

Considering Grayson and its mores, would it have been prudent?


She only had the bionic eye _Flag in Exile_ (Honor #5), she gained the arm in _Ashes of Victory_ (Honor #9) after she escaped from State Security's private Hell.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:31 am

cthia
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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
cthia wrote:Latest development raging about the globe in my inner circle . . .

If Honor had been a new piece of technology, let's say an indiscernible android on the scale of Star Trek's Data, would it have been only fair to spill the beans to Burdette then? Hmm, Honor did have an android-like arm that had to be "governed down" during the best of times.

Considering Grayson and its mores, would it have been prudent?


She only had the bionic eye _Flag in Exile_ (Honor #5), she gained the arm in _Ashes of Victory_ (Honor #9) after she escaped from State Security's private Hell.

Didn't mean to imply she had benefit of the arm then, as well. Albeit, she already had the deck pretty much stacked in her favor. BUT! Are you acknowledging that that would have been too much of an advantage? IOW -- as far as you're concerned -- the bidding starts with, and the buck stops with, the arm?

Dunno how her bionic eye could have helped out with Burdette. Though one of my friends jokingly suggested the microscopic setting can easily detect "the crease" in anything -- cloth, paper, trousers. LOL

At any rate, would her being an android, without full disclosure, constitute unfairness? If so -- and I'd be shocked if ye can honestly say nay -- then it's just a short hop and a skip to the truth as it presently stands.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:33 am

cthia
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There are still holdouts against me on this can-o-worms in my social circle. I must admit that my niece, and several of her cohorts (going to pay dearly for that one) have come up with a convincing argument. It is my niece's take on it, and many of her cohorts agree. Admittedly, even I can see the validity of her argument, which is as follows, paraphrased from a multi-way, STL international phone conference. In a nutshell . . .

"Uncle, you aren't allowing for Honor's own right of self-preservation. Only she knew whether or not she was in any condition to actually win the duel without every conceivable advantage she had. Giving up that advantage through full disclosure could have been tantamount to suicide, especially if Burdette had decided that her special skills were unfair and decided to stab her in the back much like what Pavel Young had tried to do."

I yield to her on that, because, as she said, only Honor knew. But! Other than still standing on the moral high ground, that argument will only suffice if it is presented as such at any empanelled hearings on Grayson. And if no one else in the forum drew that same conclusion other than my niece, how many lawyers or lobbyists on Grayson would.

At any rate, I yield.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by stewart   » Wed May 01, 2019 4:35 pm

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cthia wrote:There are still holdouts against me on this can-o-worms in my social circle. I must admit that my niece, and several of her cohorts (going to pay dearly for that one) have come up with a convincing argument. It is my niece's take on it, and many of her cohorts agree. Admittedly, even I can see the validity of her argument, which is as follows, paraphrased from a multi-way, STL international phone conference. In a nutshell . . .

"Uncle, you aren't allowing for Honor's own right of self-preservation. Only she knew whether or not she was in any condition to actually win the duel without every conceivable advantage she had. Giving up that advantage through full disclosure could have been tantamount to suicide, especially if Burdette had decided that her special skills were unfair and decided to stab her in the back much like what Pavel Young had tried to do."

I yield to her on that, because, as she said, only Honor knew. But! Other than still standing on the moral high ground, that argument will only suffice if it is presented as such at any empanelled hearings on Grayson. And if no one else in the forum drew that same conclusion other than my niece, how many lawyers or lobbyists on Grayson would.

At any rate, I yield.



--------------

Cthia -- By the time of the duel with Burdette, EVERYONE on Grayson has seen the Palace video from the Maccabean coup attempt. Burdette "should" know that Honor's agility and reaction speeds are "significantly higher than normal". If he had not figured that out, it was his problem. Of course since Burdette was in nearly five separate pieces after the duel, he may not have figured that out ..... :o

-- Stewart
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed May 01, 2019 4:52 pm

cthia
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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:There are still holdouts against me on this can-o-worms in my social circle. I must admit that my niece, and several of her cohorts (going to pay dearly for that one) have come up with a convincing argument. It is my niece's take on it, and many of her cohorts agree. Admittedly, even I can see the validity of her argument, which is as follows, paraphrased from a multi-way, STL international phone conference. In a nutshell . . .

"Uncle, you aren't allowing for Honor's own right of self-preservation. Only she knew whether or not she was in any condition to actually win the duel without every conceivable advantage she had. Giving up that advantage through full disclosure could have been tantamount to suicide, especially if Burdette had decided that her special skills were unfair and decided to stab her in the back much like what Pavel Young had tried to do."

I yield to her on that, because, as she said, only Honor knew. But! Other than still standing on the moral high ground, that argument will only suffice if it is presented as such at any empanelled hearings on Grayson. And if no one else in the forum drew that same conclusion other than my niece, how many lawyers or lobbyists on Grayson would.

At any rate, I yield.



--------------

Cthia -- By the time of the duel with Burdette, EVERYONE on Grayson has seen the Palace video from the Maccabean coup attempt. Burdette "should" know that Honor's agility and reaction speeds are "significantly higher than normal". If he had not figured that out, it was his problem. Of course since Burdette was in nearly five separate pieces after the duel, he may not have figured that out ..... :o

-- Stewart

This can-o-worms isn't about any of her physical abilities. It is about the THING. Which is a secret.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 pm

cthia
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One of my cohorts, a diehard Nascar fan, expressed it like so . . .

In the duel, Honor's motive was to win the race at Talladega by reaching the crease first. Using her secret ability is likened to the illegal modifications of a Nascar component that yielded an unfair advantage by significantly increasing reaction speed. It would be like an Olympic sprinter having benefit of starting blocks while no one else does.

LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sat May 04, 2019 10:43 am

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cthia wrote:There are still holdouts against me on this can-o-worms in my social circle. I must admit that my niece, and several of her cohorts (going to pay dearly for that one) have come up with a convincing argument. It is my niece's take on it, and many of her cohorts agree. Admittedly, even I can see the validity of her argument, which is as follows, paraphrased from a multi-way, STL international phone conference. In a nutshell . . .

"Uncle, you aren't allowing for Honor's own right of self-preservation. Only she knew whether or not she was in any condition to actually win the duel without every conceivable advantage she had. Giving up that advantage through full disclosure could have been tantamount to suicide, especially if Burdette had decided that her special skills were unfair and decided to stab her in the back much like what Pavel Young had tried to do."

I yield to her on that, because, as she said, only Honor knew. But! Other than still standing on the moral high ground, that argument will only suffice if it is presented as such at any empanelled hearings on Grayson. And if no one else in the forum drew that same conclusion other than my niece, how many lawyers or lobbyists on Grayson would.

At any rate, I yield.

"She was the only living holder of the Star of Grayson, which, by law, made her Protector's Champion". She would have dishonored her fealty to the Protector if she had done less than her best. If the Champion were a cyborg or a doddering old man, it really does not matter, they have to do the best that they can. To do other than that and so allow Burdette to win is unconscionable.

If the Champion were a feeble old man, who had won the Star of Grayson in his youth, then would Burdette back down because the fight was not fair? In the past you have said that this fight was not fair, because Burdette was not informed of Honor's advantage. Actually Burdette might have been better off not knowing, because overthinking and uncertainty interfere with performance.

If your niece has convinced you, then we can let this fade away.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 4:01 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:There are still holdouts against me on this can-o-worms in my social circle. I must admit that my niece, and several of her cohorts (going to pay dearly for that one) have come up with a convincing argument. It is my niece's take on it, and many of her cohorts agree. Admittedly, even I can see the validity of her argument, which is as follows, paraphrased from a multi-way, STL international phone conference. In a nutshell . . .

"Uncle, you aren't allowing for Honor's own right of self-preservation. Only she knew whether or not she was in any condition to actually win the duel without every conceivable advantage she had. Giving up that advantage through full disclosure could have been tantamount to suicide, especially if Burdette had decided that her special skills were unfair and decided to stab her in the back much like what Pavel Young had tried to do."

I yield to her on that, because, as she said, only Honor knew. But! Other than still standing on the moral high ground, that argument will only suffice if it is presented as such at any empanelled hearings on Grayson. And if no one else in the forum drew that same conclusion other than my niece, how many lawyers or lobbyists on Grayson would.

At any rate, I yield.

"She was the only living holder of the Star of Grayson, which, by law, made her Protector's Champion". She would have dishonored her fealty to the Protector if she had done less than her best. If the Champion were a cyborg or a doddering old man, it really does not matter, they have to do the best that they can. To do other than that and so allow Burdette to win is unconscionable.

If the Champion were a feeble old man, who had won the Star of Grayson in his youth, then would Burdette back down because the fight was not fair? In the past you have said that this fight was not fair, because Burdette was not informed of Honor's advantage. Actually Burdette might have been better off not knowing, because overthinking and uncertainty interfere with performance.

If your niece has convinced you, then we can let this fade away.

We know that she's Protector's Champion. It is the entry point for this can-o-worms, because only on Grayson does that title exist. Grayson, a planet whose entire existence is rooted in faith and the knowledge that there is a God. I don't purport to know whether or not soliciting the help of an android as People's Champion would be acceptable by the people of Grayson. But I'd be willing to bet that the people of Grayson would not find it humorous if it was pushed through without full dosclosure. And for you to suggest such a thing is shocking. THIS IS GRAYSON. Your heretic views highlight the danger of Grayson allowing interaction from the outside. A point I'll get to, hopefully, in another thread.

Heretic views is not meant to be a personal swipe at you. Faith, or lack thereof, is a highly personal thing. But it can flavor ones understanding of faith based matters.

OTOH, in religious threads, I've been reminded that in people other than true Christians can one extol the virtues of morals, scruples and values. In that light, I am shocked that you can find having to battle Supergirl herself, or an android -- without someone informing you what you were truly up against, is fair. Even the RMN was decent enough to inform the SLN what they were truly up against. Leaving the RMN standing on the moral high ground for all of history to come.

An "old man" on Grayson as People's Champion is part of the process and is inherent in its design. And it is totally fair by the laws of Grayson. Sad maybe, but fair. The important thing is it doesn't offer a lever to cause a constitutional crisis or a breach of faith for an entire planet. Would Burdette still challenge if it was an old man? Probably. It would still remain fair, under the laws of Grayson.

My niece has convinced me only of the fact that we may ultimately need to call Honor to the stand to testify. Do remember, Honor would be under oath. And treecats know truth. I don't know if the cats would conceal her deceit, but it can't bode well in the long run for cat and Honor. And, well, knowing our heroine, could she herself lie.

The conversation amongst my STL conference group seems to be taking a serious religious turn. Some argue that Honor, having not wholly accepted Grayson's faith, is bound by her own. Faith is a highly personal thing. Honor certainly knows the Book of The New Way quite well. There is no reason to assume she doesn't know the Bible. Particularly under scrutiny . . .

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


Tlb, I've informed you before that this can-o-worms has taken on a mind if its own. Its a large can, and recapturing all of the nuances and the worms therein -- once they've been set free -- is beyond my control. Especially in my social circles. I certainly take full responsibility for opening this can. However, the can itself, and its contents, are the soul ownership of the author's. Simply letting it fade away is something even you have proved easily said than done.

My friends and I have thoroughly enjoyed these intense discussions about the globe via international conference calls, which has an interesting side effect of mimicking STL transmissions. I think we laid unprecedented ground rules for parliamentary procedure during an otherwise unmanageable number of people jacked into a conference call. It is loads of fun and highly entertaining. And again, we all have a firsthand account of the combatants in the Honorverse trying to communicate from great distances during a battle -- trying to keep hot one's passion, anger or excitement while waiting your turn to speak again. Promulgated by this can-o-worms.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sun May 05, 2019 7:44 am

tlb
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cthia wrote:We know that she's Protector's Champion. It is the entry point for this can-o-worms, because only on Grayson does that title exist. Grayson, a planet whose entire existence is rooted in faith and the knowledge that there is a God. I don't purport to know whether or not soliciting the help of an android as People's Champion would be acceptable by the people of Grayson. But I'd be willing to bet that the people of Grayson would not find it humorous if it was pushed through without full dosclosure. And for you to suggest such a thing is shocking. THIS IS GRAYSON. Your heretic views highlight the danger of Grayson allowing interaction from the outside.

--snip--

An "old man" on Grayson as People's Champion is part of the process and is inherent in its design. And it is totally fair by the laws of Grayson. Sad maybe, but fair. The important thing is it doesn't offer a lever to cause a constitutional crisis or a breach of faith for an entire planet. Would Burdette still challenge if it was an old man? Probably. It would still remain fair, under the laws of Grayson.

So, no real change in your viewpoint, and certainly not in mine. This becomes another one of those things that you believe will be addressed in some indefinite date in the future of the Honorverse; like the SLN's "karmic" retribution against Beowulf.

It still seems that you are being more of a "Champion" of Grayson's religion than anyone on Grayson is. The trial by combat occurred in about 1906 PD, by about 1913 PD a statue of Honor and Nimitz waiting for the fight to the death was erected in front of the Steadholder's Hall (and the only one threatening to blow it up was Honor herself) and by 1922 PD there was still no sign of this moral turmoil that you claim is waiting to erupt. There is no sign of a constitutional crisis nor of a breach of faith for an entire planet.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 8:22 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:We know that she's Protector's Champion. It is the entry point for this can-o-worms, because only on Grayson does that title exist. Grayson, a planet whose entire existence is rooted in faith and the knowledge that there is a God. I don't purport to know whether or not soliciting the help of an android as People's Champion would be acceptable by the people of Grayson. But I'd be willing to bet that the people of Grayson would not find it humorous if it was pushed through without full dosclosure. And for you to suggest such a thing is shocking. THIS IS GRAYSON. Your heretic views highlight the danger of Grayson allowing interaction from the outside.

--snip--

An "old man" on Grayson as People's Champion is part of the process and is inherent in its design. And it is totally fair by the laws of Grayson. Sad maybe, but fair. The important thing is it doesn't offer a lever to cause a constitutional crisis or a breach of faith for an entire planet. Would Burdette still challenge if it was an old man? Probably. It would still remain fair, under the laws of Grayson.

So, no real change in your viewpoint, and certainly not in mine. This becomes another one of those things that you believe will be addressed in some indefinite date in the future of the Honorverse; like the SLN's "karmic" retribution against Beowulf.

It still seems that you are being more of a "Champion" of Grayson's religion than anyone on Grayson is. The trial by combat occurred in about 1906 PD, by about 1913 PD a statue of Honor and Nimitz waiting for the fight to the death was erected in front of the Steadholder's Hall (and the only one threatening to blow it up was Honor herself) and by 1922 PD there was still no sign of this moral turmoil that you claim is waiting to erupt. There is no sign of a constitutional crisis nor of a breach of faith for an entire planet.

There can be no sign of excrement before the shit hits the fan. IOW, Honor's secret, and how it relates to the duel, has not hit the fan.

I agree no one was threatening to blow up Honor's statue. The disgruntled faction (who still exists) were too busy trying to blow her up. As whether my views have changed, let's just say I reserve final judgement until Honor takes the stand.

I have never claimed any subject I broach in the Honorverse will be addressed in the future.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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