Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:33 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

The timelines bearing textev . . .

Honor of the Queen 1993
Flag In Exile 1995
Echoes of Honor 1998
Ashes of Victory 2000
Changer of Worlds 2001

regarding this can-o-worms—originally unleashed upon the galaxy beginning here.

I have been referred to textev in other books but thus far cannot find anything that undeniably refutes the THING. The THING is found in Flag in Exile, along with this can-o-worms.


stewart wrote:snip

Honor's only link at those times to other's emotions was through Nimitz, and not fully developed then -- re-read Echoes of Honor and Ashes of Victory for specifics.

-- Stewart

Though in FiE it doesn't matter if her secret wasn't fully developed since Nimitz was present. But let's at least consider what textev in other books has to say . . .

dauntless wrote:in Changer of worlds (honorverse anthlogy 3, first story) nimitiz tells his clan that even now, she (Honor) does not realise that she (Honor) is now reading the emotions, instead of just picking up what nimitz sends her, meaning that her control is still less then what she will have later, and this is at least 2 T years after the fight. This story take place in the gap between book 6 and 7.


but Cthia is right to some extent that the ability to sense emotions could be seen as an unfair advantage by someone trying to twist things, though i'd say the years of martial arts training and the ability to recognise when someone will make a move and automatically countering it, as seen in her sparring matches in book 6, is a much greater one.


snip


HotQ Ch. 20 posted by Vince . . .
HotQ wrote:She’d always known Nimitz could feel her emotions, but she’d never knowingly felt his.

This time she did—and as she also felt the emotions of the fresh “Security detachment” through him, she exploded out of her chair.


Which leaves Ashes of Victory and Echoes of Honor.

Ashes of Victory Ch. One wrote:
Admiral Lady Dame Honor Harrington stood in the gallery of ENS Farnese's boat bay and tried not to reel as the silent emotional hurricane thundered about her.


She gazed through the armorplast of the gallery bulkhead into the brilliantly lit, perfect clarity of the bay itself, and tried to use its sterile serenity as a sort of mental shield against the tempest. It didn't help a great deal, but at least she didn't have to face it alone, and she felt the living side of her mouth quirk in a wry smile as the six-limbed treecat in the carrier on her back shifted uneasily, ears half-flattened as the same vortex battered at him. Like the rest of his empathic species, he remained far more sensitive to others' emotions than she, and he seemed torn between a frantic need to escape the sheer intensity of the moment and a sort of euphoric high driven by an excess of everyone else's endorphins.

At least the two of them had had plenty of practice, she reminded herself. The stunned moment when her people realized their scratch-built, jury-rigged, half-derisively self proclaimed "Elysian Space Navy" had destroyed an entire Peep task force and captured the shipping to take every prisoner who wanted to leave the prison planet of Hades to safety lay over three standard weeks behind them. [b]She'd thought, then, that nothing could ever equal the explosion of triumph which had swept her ex-Peep flagship at that instant, but in its own way, the emotional storm seething about her now was even stronger. It had had longer to build on the voyage from the prison
the entire People's Republic of Haven had regarded as the most escape-proof facility in human history to freedom, and anticipation had fanned its strength. For some of the escapees, like Captain Harriet Benson, the CO of ENS Kutuzov, over sixty T-years had passed since they'd breathed the air of a free planet. Those people could never return to the lives they'd left behind, but their need to begin building new ones blazed within them. Nor were they alone in their impatience. Even those who'd spent the least time in the custody of the Office of State Security longed to see loved ones once more, and unlike the escapees who'd spent decades on the planet inmates called "Hell," they could pick up the threads of the lives they'd feared they would never see again.

Yet that hunger to begin anew was tempered by a matching emotion which might almost have been called regret. An awareness that somehow they had become part of a tale which would be told and retold, and, undoubtedly, grow still greater in the tellings . . . and that all tales end.

They knew the impossible odds they had surmounted to reach this moment, in this boat bay gallery, in this star system. And because they did, they also knew that all the embellishments with which the tale would be improved upon over the years—by themselves, as likely as not—would be unnecessary, peripheral and unimportant to the reality.

And that was what they regretted: the fact that when they left Farnese, they would also leave behind the companions with whom they had built that tale's reality. The unvoiced awareness that it was not given to human beings to touch such moments, save fleetingly. The memory of who they'd been and what they'd done would be with them always, yet it would be only memory, never again reality. And as the heart-stopping fear and terror faded, the reality would become even more precious and unattainable to them.

That was what truly gave the emotions whirling about her their strength . . . and focused that strength upon her, for she was their leader, and that made her the symbol of their joy and bittersweet regret alike.

It was also horribly embarrassing, and the fact that none of them knew she could sense their emotions only made it worse. It was as if she stood outside their windows, listening to whispered conversations they'd never meant to share with her, and the fact that she had no choice—that she could no longer not sense the feelings of those about her—only made her feel perversely guilty when she did
.

snip

And they'd done it for her. She'd tried to express even a fraction of the gratitude she felt, but she knew she'd failed. They lacked the sense she'd developed, the ability to feel the reality behind the clumsy interface of human language, and all her efforts had made not a dent in the storm of devotion pouring back at her.

If only—

A clear, musical chime—not loud, but penetrating—broke into her thoughts and she drew a deep breath as the first pinnace began its final approach.

Ashes of Victory seems to hammer the embarrassing ability home.

Admittedly, time and my remaining holiday company has altogether conspired to prevent my compiling data from Echoes of Honor, but I anticipate no significant speedbumps.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:24 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
Pardon me bold.

cthia wrote:Um, Pavel Young intimidated the hell out of Honor. Granted, he's the only one who ever could. But you can bet he always would.

Pavel Young hid behind his breeding and family name. Honor didn't know how to fight that kind of battle. Any other mere mortal would have long since been jerked up short with his kind of behavior. Even Hauptman. But Pavel Young knew exactly which buttons to push and when. He owned Honor's goat until he bought the farm. He treated her like an insignificant child. He certainly proved her to be non-unflappable.


ldwechsler wrote:Young hardly owned her. He was a superior officer (actually superordinate...higher rank, inferior person) who left her on her own at Basilisk.

The next time they met, he was her prisoner.

I believe the next time after that was when she challenged him to a duel. And soon after he was dead.


Yea, owned is much too strong a word—for anyone else. Young owned her. No matter what would come to be her rank or accomplishments, Young ignored both.

Young owned her ass way back during the rape attempt. Even before that. That's why he tried to rape her, because he felt he owned it, was entitled to it by social status. He disrespected her by the way he even demanded it. He acted as if he would be doing her a favor to sleep with him. Sheer humiliation he caused her and made her question her worth as a lowly commoner.

She was insignificant enough that he could simply take it. Sure, she whipped him, but the psychological damage was already done when he forced the worse out of her. Then his total intimidation was enough to keep her from ratting him out to Hartley which would have ended his career then and there. Owned her. Oh, and he poisoned her demon to get to a naked commoner for the taking in the shower.

Then he owned her again in the Basilisk system when he demanded she come to his quarters so he could toy with her during her first significant deployment. Then he refused to recognize she had shown up by making her stand motionless and quiet like a child, before acknowledging she was even there and refused to invite her to even sit when he did, finally, acknowledge her. Right before giving her an impossible task to perform then leaving her ass to rot in the Basilisk system.

He owned her again in the Hancock System when he ignored her orders to return to formation, causing deaths of her people, indicating his opinion of her as a Queen's officer, something that really irked her. He hurt her by flipping his end and abandoning the fight in the first place, then mooning her and the navy. He made her disrespect the entire chamber of Lords just to get to him. His family and henchmen sabotaged her career at every turn. He owned her when she wasn't even near him. During the trial he owned her as well by escaping death. Essentially he won the trial. He took her first love away from her and almost made her throw her career away because of it. Caused her to challenge him to a duel. Although she won, it got her banished. He still owned her ass even unto death.

The Youngin simply owned Honor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:51 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
Pardon me bold.

cthia wrote:Um, Pavel Young intimidated the hell out of Honor. Granted, he's the only one who ever could. But you can bet he always would.

Pavel Young hid behind his breeding and family name. Honor didn't know how to fight that kind of battle. Any other mere mortal would have long since been jerked up short with his kind of behavior. Even Hauptman. But Pavel Young knew exactly which buttons to push and when. He owned Honor's goat until he bought the farm. He treated her like an insignificant child. He certainly proved her to be non-unflappable.


ldwechsler wrote:Young hardly owned her. He was a superior officer (actually superordinate...higher rank, inferior person) who left her on her own at Basilisk.

The next time they met, he was her prisoner.

I believe the next time after that was when she challenged him to a duel. And soon after he was dead.


Yea, owned is much too strong a word—for anyone else. Young owned her. No matter what would come to be her rank or accomplishments, Young ignored both.

Young owned her ass way back during the rape attempt. Even before that. That's why he tried to rape her, because he felt he owned it, was entitled to it by social status. He disrespected her by the way he even demanded it. He acted as if he would be doing her a favor to sleep with him. Sheer humiliation he caused her and made her question her worth as a lowly commoner.

She was insignificant enough that he could simply take it. Sure, she whipped him, but the psychological damage was already done when he forced the worse out of her. Then his total intimidation was enough to keep her from ratting him out to Hartley which would have ended his career then and there. Owned her. Oh, and he poisoned her demon to get to a naked commoner for the taking in the shower.

Then he owned her again in the Basilisk system when he demanded she come to his quarters so he could toy with her during her first significant deployment. Then he refused to recognize she had shown up by making her stand motionless and quiet like a child, before acknowledging she was even there and refused to invite her to even sit when he did, finally, acknowledge her. Right before giving her an impossible task to perform then leaving her ass to rot in the Basilisk system.

He owned her again in the Hancock System when he ignored her orders to return to formation, causing deaths of her people, indicating his opinion of her as a Queen's officer, something that really irked her. He hurt her by flipping his end and abandoning the fight in the first place, then mooning her and the navy. He made her disrespect the entire chamber of Lords just to get to him. His family and henchmen sabotaged her career at every turn. He owned her when she wasn't even near him. During the trial he owned her as well by escaping death. Essentially he won the trial. He took her first love away from her and almost made her throw her career away because of it. Caused her to challenge him to a duel. Although she won, it got her banished. He still owned her ass even unto death.

The Youngin simply owned Honor.[/quote]


Your definition of "own" is rather different from the rest of us...I believe.

First of all, he might have felt that he was better but it went rather nowhere. He couldn't carry out the rape, got his butt handed to him BY A WOMAN.

Yes, she visited him at his ship. That is normal custom when a new ship comes on station if there is a superior officer on another ship. Had Honor outranked him, he would have come to her. No owning, simple naval custom. You can read about it in Hornblower or a lot of other series.

And I doubt his actions at Hancock were disrespect. He was terrified. He used his seniority to claim she had no right to question him and HE LOST the court martial. He was about to be stripped of his position when his father died and he moved up to be a Lord.

I could argue that she owned him. She beat the daylights out of him, became a hero because he left his station (and most of the navy knew it even though his connections kept him from trouble) which led to promotion.

Finally, she had legal power over him when he ducked away during battle and then he wound up hiding to avoid a challenge. He was clearly terrified when they dueled and shot ahead of time which would have socially ruined him had he not died a couple of seconds later.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:17 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
Pardon me bold.

cthia wrote:Um, Pavel Young intimidated the hell out of Honor. Granted, he's the only one who ever could. But you can bet he always would.

Pavel Young hid behind his breeding and family name. Honor didn't know how to fight that kind of battle. Any other mere mortal would have long since been jerked up short with his kind of behavior. Even Hauptman. But Pavel Young knew exactly which buttons to push and when. He owned Honor's goat until he bought the farm. He treated her like an insignificant child. He certainly proved her to be non-unflappable.


ldwechsler wrote:Young hardly owned her. He was a superior officer (actually superordinate...higher rank, inferior person) who left her on her own at Basilisk.

The next time they met, he was her prisoner.

I believe the next time after that was when she challenged him to a duel. And soon after he was dead.


cthia wrote:Yea, owned is much too strong a word—for anyone else. Young owned her. No matter what would come to be her rank or accomplishments, Young ignored both.

Young owned her ass way back during the rape attempt. Even before that. That's why he tried to rape her, because he felt he owned it, was entitled to it by social status. He disrespected her by the way he even demanded it. He acted as if he would be doing her a favor to sleep with him. Sheer humiliation he caused her and made her question her worth as a lowly commoner.

She was insignificant enough that he could simply take it. Sure, she whipped him, but the psychological damage was already done when he forced the worse out of her. Then his total intimidation was enough to keep her from ratting him out to Hartley which would have ended his career then and there. Owned her. Oh, and he poisoned her demon to get to a naked commoner for the taking in the shower.

Then he owned her again in the Basilisk system when he demanded she come to his quarters so he could toy with her during her first significant deployment. Then he refused to recognize she had shown up by making her stand motionless and quiet like a child, before acknowledging she was even there and refused to invite her to even sit when he did, finally, acknowledge her. Right before giving her an impossible task to perform then leaving her ass to rot in the Basilisk system.

He owned her again in the Hancock System when he ignored her orders to return to formation, causing deaths of her people, indicating his opinion of her as a Queen's officer, something that really irked her. He hurt her by flipping his end and abandoning the fight in the first place, then mooning her and the navy. He made her disrespect the entire chamber of Lords just to get to him. His family and henchmen sabotaged her career at every turn. He owned her when she wasn't even near him. During the trial he owned her as well by escaping death. Essentially he won the trial. He took her first love away from her and almost made her throw her career away because of it. Caused her to challenge him to a duel. Although she won, it got her banished. He still owned her ass even unto death.

The Youngin simply owned Honor.



ldwechsler wrote:Your definition of "own" is rather different from the rest of us...I believe.

First of all, he might have felt that he was better but it went rather nowhere. He couldn't carry out the rape, got his butt handed to him BY A WOMAN.

Yes, she visited him at his ship. That is normal custom when a new ship comes on station if there is a superior officer on another ship. Had Honor outranked him, he would have come to her. No owning, simple naval custom. You can read about it in Hornblower or a lot of other series.

And I doubt his actions at Hancock were disrespect. He was terrified. He used his seniority to claim she had no right to question him and HE LOST the court martial. He was about to be stripped of his position when his father died and he moved up to be a Lord.

I could argue that she owned him. She beat the daylights out of him, became a hero because he left his station (and most of the navy knew it even though his connections kept him from trouble) which led to promotion.

Finally, she had legal power over him when he ducked away during battle and then he wound up hiding to avoid a challenge. He was clearly terrified when they dueled and shot ahead of time which would have socially ruined him had he not died a couple of seconds later.

Now LD, we are all well aware that most of my notions are different than any others found in the forum. Isn't that what makes me so likeable and interesting?

However, I cannot take credit for this particular one. It originated from one of my Bulgarian friends living in Bucharest. She made that statement long ago and it is bandied about my social circle. She always stated that a man who attempts to rape a woman then manages to intimidate her into keeping silent about it is only exceeded by one who succeeds in the attempt and intimidates her into silence . . .

"Young owned Honor. Her colleagues and her best friend knew it as well. 'FOR CHRIST SAKES HONOR, SPEAK UP!'" *

Honor knew it too. She was always commenting that "He did it again. He was going to get away with such and such again." She could have put paid to Young's ass long before he could become the nuisance that he did. But Young owned her ass into silence.

*Iulia, the green-eyed striking redhead in question, is insanely attractive with very warm, very beautiful eyes that turn a frightening hue of grayish-green when she's angry. She detests Honor's decision to keep quiet about the attempted rape and claims it is a decision that would only come from uptight American prudish puritans who are afraid of sex and any discussions pertaining to.

I was reminded of the notion after my niece whipped my ass in 19 straight games of chess over the holidays when she said "I own your ass like Young owned Honor."

She's still very upset with me over this present can-o-worms. A scorned woman spilling my blood on the chess board.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:42 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Kael Posavatz wrote:
You say that as though it was necessary for her victory.

I think she would have won regardless. Recall her instructor commented early on that Honor was studying it as a tool for killing, accepting minor blows to enable what would be fatal attacks for her opponent.

Also, when Burdette calls for trial by combat, he is invoking an ancient privaledge that has gone unused for centuries. To him and everyone else on Grayson it is essentially a sport. Honor approaches the sword as a shiny new way to kill people. (That may be a little blunt, and be something of a disservice, but I had to sneak one pun in. Sorry).


Not necessary for. Cause of.


Kael Posavatz wrote:I'll concede it was a contributing factor, and even go so far as it enabled the efficient decapitation of Burdette's ambitions. But to name it the cause of her victory is too cavalier a dismissal of other contributing factors for me.


Kael, I reread this and it is absolutely hilarious.

If you agree it was a contributing factor, you can bet it was total. There's no such thing as Nimitz assisting Honor just a little . . .

< :o HONOR! :o >

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:01 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ldwechsler wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Nimitz would have survived for a time if Honor had been killed by Burdette. Nothing says that Treecats automaticaly sucide if their bandmate dies but they do suffer the loss and often die soon unless there is something to offset it, like Justin bonding with assinated King Roger's treecat.
Then there is the 'cat in The Stray. It was in terrible shape but it was also driven to revenge- which got it killed in the killing of the woman who killed it bondmate.
It is quite possible that Nimitz wouldn't have gotten out of the Steadholder meeting alive but that would likely been because the last thing Burdette experienced was getting shreadded by an enraged treecat and Nimitz would have been overmatched by the reactions of the various security forces.


Would he? Burdette, had he killed Honor, might have kept his position but would have really lost any sense of decency. Honor had come back after being wounded and then fighting a battle that saved the planet. She was exhausted and it was not a fair fight.

If Nimitz attacked there would have been a very small target presumably really close to Burdette's head. And when he went down, would anyone have really wanted to kill Nimitz, also a hero on Grayson?
Pardon my bold.

Not too sure I agree with that LdW. Sure, he may have received some backlash in some op-ed piece on the front page of the Grayson Testament, but remenber, the duel was essentially for all the marbles. He would have been praised on his side of the fence for ridding Grayson of the fornicating whore who brainwashed the Protector into leading them astray. He may have enjoyed a cult status and developed a bit of a cult following and may even have become a hero of sorts within his own social circles.

****** *

Interestingly enough, I came across the first incident where I shared the notion bandied about my social circle that Young owned Honor here. Which, iinm, would have been the previous summer my friend Iulia let it rip. My friends enjoyed the Honor, Nimitz and Pavel Young thread immensely.

ldwechsler wrote:Your definition of "own" is rather different from the rest of us...I believe.


Rereading this made me see the disconnect. Perhaps I owe you an apology ldwechsler. My definition of own very well may be different than your own. There very well may be a failure to communicate.


Time for some of that "sharing" again that someone pointed out that I seem to do a lot. But only when I deem it necessary, as now. IOW, time to get up close and personal again. Iulia has a younger sister who was born with an abundant supply of freckles. She was embarrassed by the freckles yet ironically she is one of the most beautiful girls I've ever seen, who simply lacked the confidence of a beautiful girl. I let her in on the secret of how beautiful she really is and taught her to "own the freckles!" "Teach the world just how hot freckles are." It worked. They say I've created a monster. She's become very popular, and confident.

"Own it!" is a phrase that was heavily used by coaches way back in the 70's. You were to "own" your position. On the football field a Defensive End (DE) is not supposed to allow a man to pass on his outside shoulder. Rather - a DE should allow no man to get around him, his job is to always turn the play inside. Own the position. Control it.

In that sense, Young owned Honor. He controlled her.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:09 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

cthia wrote:
crewdude48 wrote:I agree too, though admit that I don't quite understand it because I think I remember reading that Masada was a much better planet, less hostile. So I don't understand why they wanted Grayson so badly. I undoubtedly missed that part in text, and my guess is that it was a religious obligation to save their home planet from Satan and deliver the Graysons from evil. I can only surmise that they felt the Tester required it of them.


The reason the Masadans wanted Grayson was because that was the world that GOD himself had led them to. That was the world He wanted them to live in. According to text, the Faithful believed that if they made society on Grayson as good and Godly as possible, then the Tester would transform it into a new Eden.

cthia wrote:I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


Short answer; nobody knew about it. In HotQ, they state that Masada was only discovered shortly before the civil war.

The colonists very specifically set out to part of the universe that had not been scouted or surveyed. Grayson was the first habitable planet that they happened upon, for various definitions of habitable. The entire plan was "fly that way for x amount of time, then find somewhere to live." I remember, back when I was a boy scout, on our hiking trips; we would stop for the night at an OK campsite, and then the next morning start hiking again, only to walk past a much better campsite within the first hour or so. All you can do is grumble and curse about it.

Thanks dude. That illuminated lots of my dark spots. For the life of me I couldn't understand why they didn't accept that they got a much better deal. Or that their impossible egos didn't lead them to surmise that, compared to Grayson, Masada was led to a new Eden.

Thanks for that info. May I ask what text it came out of?[/quote]

Keep in mind that religious nuts think differently. Also, by the time they could really handle the asteroids, they were probably held back by the notion that Grayson might wind up totally uninhabitable for generations after they did.

Also, once Haven was involved, they would have blocked it. Even they had some standards.

As for Barbara Bancroft, let's keep in mind that really patriarchal societies always look to the woman as the one who sins. Remember it was "the Fall of Adam, the Sin of Eve."

On top of it all, they knew they had sympathizers on Grayson and so had hopes they could simply take it.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:31 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

crewdude48 wrote:
cthia wrote:I agree too, though admit that I don't quite understand it because I think I remember reading that Masada was a much better planet, less hostile. So I don't understand why they wanted Grayson so badly. I undoubtedly missed that part in text, and my guess is that it was a religious obligation to save their home planet from Satan and deliver the Graysons from evil. I can only surmise that they felt the Tester required it of them.


The reason the Masadans wanted Grayson was because that was the world that GOD himself had led them to. That was the world He wanted them to live in. According to text, the Faithful believed that if they made society on Grayson as good and Godly as possible, then the Tester would transform it into a new Eden.

cthia wrote:I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


Short answer; nobody knew about it. In HotQ, they state that Masada was only discovered shortly before the civil war.

The colonists very specifically set out to part of the universe that had not been scouted or surveyed. Grayson was the first habitable planet that they happened upon, for various definitions of habitable. The entire plan was "fly that way for x amount of time, then find somewhere to live." I remember, back when I was a boy scout, on our hiking trips; we would stop for the night at an OK campsite, and then the next morning start hiking again, only to walk past a much better campsite within the first hour or so. All you can do is grumble and curse about it.

cthia wrote:Thanks dude. That illuminated lots of my dark spots. For the life of me I couldn't understand why they didn't accept that they got a much better deal. Or that their impossible egos didn't lead them to surmise that, compared to Grayson, Masada was led to a new Eden.

Thanks for that info. May I ask what text it came out of?

ldwechsler wrote:Keep in mind that religious nuts think differently. Also, by the time they could really handle the asteroids, they were probably held back by the notion that Grayson might wind up totally uninhabitable for generations after they did.

Also, once Haven was involved, they would have blocked it. Even they had some standards.

As for Barbara Bancroft, let's keep in mind that really patriarchal societies always look to the woman as the one who sins. Remember it was "the Fall of Adam, the Sin of Eve."

On top of it all, they knew they had sympathizers on Grayson and so had hopes they could simply take it.

Cleaned up attributes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:16 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Protector Benjamin chooses . . .

HONOR HARRINGTON = PEOPLES CHAMPION

≠ HONOR AND NIMITZ

Is it time for a bonded pair to be seen as [1 entity] in certain aspects of the law? Since a 'Cat's life is mortally intertwined with a human's, doesn't it follow that if you [attack endanger] a 'Cat's human, you essentially [attack endanger] the 'Cat as well?

Does it not follow that Grayson's dueling code should be rewritten that a bonded pair as People's Champion automatically includes the 'Cat as well?

Of course, a change of the law is too late to keep this present can-o-worms from squirming.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse