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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:37 am

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Just been watching Khartoum, the first 25 minutes reminded me of the Young administration looking for a scapegoat by sending Honor to Marsh.

Although at the same time it reminded me of the machinations of the SLN Mandarins.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by stewart   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.



-------------

Actually, at this time in Honor's empathic development, she did not have direct access to Burdette's psyche, nor earlier to Young's or Summerville's. Nimitz was sequestered on board ship for both of the pistol duels as well as the confrontation in the bar with Summervale.
Honor's only link at those times to other's emotions was through Nimitz, and not fully developed then -- re-read Echoes of Honor and Ashes of Victory for specifics.

-- Stewart
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:32 pm

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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.



-------------

Actually, at this time in Honor's empathic development, she did not have direct access to Burdette's psyche, nor earlier to Young's or Summerville's. Nimitz was sequestered on board ship for both of the pistol duels as well as the confrontation in the bar with Summervale.
Honor's only link at those times to other's emotions was through Nimitz, and not fully developed then -- re-read Echoes of Honor and Ashes of Victory for specifics.

-- Stewart

Dunno why everyone keeps trying to refute the THING. Again, it is irrefutable. Nimitz was NOT sequestered during the duel with Burdette.

As far as the other duels, she knew those two were afraid when she brought up her telephoto lens.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:59 pm

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cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:00 am

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ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.

Not emotion(s). Honor simply needed to know one emotion. The screaming emotion of the "crease" during battle. My friends simply posit that knowing the other emotions associated with fear during halftime may have been helpful as well. And, we all quite agree that Honor's mind was clear of everything during the duel, even Nimitz' input. Nimitz would have wanted the moment he summoned the cavalry to cut through nothing but silence . . .

<NOW HONOR NOW!>

There was a battle of wills, such as it were. In fact, it perplexed Burdette that his act of the "dominance" over Honor during the beginning of the duel seemed to slide off of her like water off a Salamander's back. I can scare the passage up if need be. My friends simply posit that the more serious confrontation of wills happened during "halftime."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:49 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.

Not emotion(s). Honor simply needed to know one emotion. The screaming emotion of the "crease" during battle. My friends simply posit that knowing the other emotions associated with fear during halftime may have been helpful as well. And, we all quite agree that Honor's mind was clear of everything during the duel, even Nimitz' input. Nimitz would have wanted the moment he summoned the cavalry to cut through nothing but silence . . .

<NOW HONOR NOW!>

There was a battle of wills, such as it were. In fact, it perplexed Burdette that his act of the "dominance" over Honor during the beginning of the duel seemed to slide off of her like water off a Salamander's back. I can scare the passage up if need be. My friends simply posit that the more serious confrontation of wills happened during "halftime."[/quote]

A key element also was that Honor is a warrior and Burdette was not. He was a good swordsman in matches that did not end in death.

Suddenly his life was on the line. Honor had faced death before...had actually fought a couple of duels, one against a champion duelist.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:16 am

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Nimitz would have survived for a time if Honor had been killed by Burdette. Nothing says that Treecats automaticaly sucide if their bandmate dies but they do suffer the loss and often die soon unless there is something to offset it, like Justin bonding with assinated King Roger's treecat.
Then there is the 'cat in The Stray. It was in terrible shape but it was also driven to revenge- which got it killed in the killing of the woman who killed it bondmate.
It is quite possible that Nimitz wouldn't have gotten out of the Steadholder meeting alive but that would likely been because the last thing Burdette experienced was getting shreadded by an enraged treecat and Nimitz would have been overmatched by the reactions of the various security forces.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Nimitz would have survived for a time if Honor had been killed by Burdette. Nothing says that Treecats automaticaly sucide if their bandmate dies but they do suffer the loss and often die soon unless there is something to offset it, like Justin bonding with assinated King Roger's treecat.
Then there is the 'cat in The Stray. It was in terrible shape but it was also driven to revenge- which got it killed in the killing of the woman who killed it bondmate.
It is quite possible that Nimitz wouldn't have gotten out of the Steadholder meeting alive but that would likely been because the last thing Burdette experienced was getting shreadded by an enraged treecat and Nimitz would have been overmatched by the reactions of the various security forces.


Would he? Burdette, had he killed Honor, might have kept his position but would have really lost any sense of decency. Honor had come back after being wounded and then fighting a battle that saved the planet. She was exhausted and it was not a fair fight.

If Nimitz attacked there would have been a very small target presumably really close to Burdette's head. And when he went down, would anyone have really wanted to kill Nimitz, also a hero on Grayson?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:12 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
Pardon me bold.

Um, Pavel Young intimidated the hell out of Honor. Granted, he's the only one who ever could. But you can bet he always would.

Pavel Young hid behind his breeding and family name. Honor didn't know how to fight that kind of battle. Any other mere mortal would have long since been jerked up short with his kind of behavior. Even Hauptman. But Pavel Young knew exactly which buttons to push and when. He owned Honor's goat until he bought the farm. He treated her like an insignificant child. He certainly proved her to be non-unflappable.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:53 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
Pardon me bold.

Um, Pavel Young intimidated the hell out of Honor. Granted, he's the only one who ever could. But you can bet he always would.

Pavel Young hid behind his breeding and family name. Honor didn't know how to fight that kind of battle. Any other mere mortal would have long since been jerked up short with his kind of behavior. Even Hauptman. But Pavel Young knew exactly which buttons to push and when. He owned Honor's goat until he bought the farm. He treated her like an insignificant child. He certainly proved her to be non-unflappable.[/quote]

Young hardly owned her. He was a superior officer (actually superordinate...higher rank, inferior person) who left her on her own at Basilisk.

The next time they met, he was her prisoner.

I believe the next time after that was when she challenged him to a duel. And soon after he was dead.
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