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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:46 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Yes, the first several pages of that thread and on up to half the thread was me arguing the simple fact that Beowulf's actions would be targeted as treasonous.

Rather than a repetition of the entire discussion, the way I read the first half of that thread was as variations on the following paraphrased statements and responses:

Cthia writes "The Solarian League will consider Beowulf to have committed treason".
Someone else writes "What Beowulf did was legal and not treason at all".
Cthia writes "But Beowulf will have to consider the reaction of the Solarian League to its treason".
Someone else writes "Beowulf did what it needed to do and that was not treason".

About midway through the thread, we finally got you to expound and discovered that there was unspoken clause to your main statement. So it really went like this in your mind:

Cthia writes "The Solarian League will consider Beowulf to have committed treason (,because Beowuf had an obligation to the League that it was breaking)".

You just restated that hidden clause in the post above:
cthia wrote:Um, if you agree that the League would view Beowulf's actions as treasonous, then #1 is implied.


Where #1 is the following contention that we finally got you to state:
1. Beowulf was guilty of actual treason by breaking unwritten, implied obligations to the League that they had accrued by being a founding member.

In my opinion, A does not imply B; but if B were true, then it would justify A.


****** *

Your post is really confusing. Your closing argument uses numbers (#1 and #2) then switches to letters (A and B) that either aren't related or the logic is orphaned. Additionally, you cannot argue "paraphrased statements," instead of the actual statements. Paraphrased statements are your interpretation of what was actually stated and meant.

Remember everyone's - and I do mean every single person besides myself - erroneous interpretation of John Harington's quote? Every subsequent paraphrase erroneously bastardized it to their own intent.

That is the problem with hearsay. A teacher of mine way back in grade school conducted an experiment where she whispered a paragraph in a student's ear that went around the room in whispers (gossip). By the time the last student got the gossip, is was severely distorted.

Please argue actual posts, not paraphrases. Paraphrases sre simply gossip. I have a difficult enough time hoping everyone will properly digest what's actually written.

Let's take this discussion to the ring where it belongs. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:38 am

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Response moved to Beowulf & Karma thread.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:51 am

cthia
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Fox2! wrote:
Daryl wrote:At this point in this fictional novel, the villain has noticed that the heroine is female (therefore by his culture weaker and softer), wounded, and exhausted. He also knows that he has practiced for years at this martial art, and attained a high rank, while she has only had a few months in a busy schedule to "play" with the sword. I'd be putting money on the villain. Mind you I imagine that if he had won this, his life would have been short anyway, as he would be known as a killer of children, plus someone who took advantage of a potentially breeding female and killed her while she was injured and exhausted. Not a fair test.


Burdette would have out-lived Honor only by the time required for Nimitz to launch a disemboweling attack on him. Even if every Armsman in the Chamber fired at him, Nimitz would succeed in killing Burdette before dying himself.

This has been an interesting discussion in my group. Would Nimitz have survived a decapitation of Honor and the rush of emotions surging through him long enough to kill Burdette? Some in my group say no, that Nimitz would have curled up in a ball and immediately self-destructed because of his intense bond with Honor that is one of a kind. Some say Nimitz would have been temporarily protected by the sheer adrenaline from the raw anger and hatred.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:56 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:
My miffed Niece's Rebuttal



I'll have you know that Nimitz has had plenty of practice holding his breath. You of all people should know that!


<Honor! How am I supposed to refrain from slitting Pavel Young's throat!>

"How?"

<HOW! Honor!>

"Take a deep breath. Go on!"

<I . . . N . . . H . . . A . . . L . . . E>

"Now hold it! . . . Hold it! . . . Hold it! . . ."


Nimitz had PLENTY of practice!


My niece is still up in arms over this can-o-worms . . .

"Burdette was headed to hell, Honor was the Devil's Advocate."

:lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:22 am

cthia
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Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:37 am

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Just been watching Khartoum, the first 25 minutes reminded me of the Young administration looking for a scapegoat by sending Honor to Marsh.

Although at the same time it reminded me of the machinations of the SLN Mandarins.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by stewart   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.



-------------

Actually, at this time in Honor's empathic development, she did not have direct access to Burdette's psyche, nor earlier to Young's or Summerville's. Nimitz was sequestered on board ship for both of the pistol duels as well as the confrontation in the bar with Summervale.
Honor's only link at those times to other's emotions was through Nimitz, and not fully developed then -- re-read Echoes of Honor and Ashes of Victory for specifics.

-- Stewart
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:32 pm

cthia
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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.



-------------

Actually, at this time in Honor's empathic development, she did not have direct access to Burdette's psyche, nor earlier to Young's or Summerville's. Nimitz was sequestered on board ship for both of the pistol duels as well as the confrontation in the bar with Summervale.
Honor's only link at those times to other's emotions was through Nimitz, and not fully developed then -- re-read Echoes of Honor and Ashes of Victory for specifics.

-- Stewart

Dunno why everyone keeps trying to refute the THING. Again, it is irrefutable. Nimitz was NOT sequestered during the duel with Burdette.

As far as the other duels, she knew those two were afraid when she brought up her telephoto lens.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:59 pm

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cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:00 am

cthia
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ywing14 wrote:
cthia wrote:Over the holiday, a couple of friends brought up the fact that Honor's duel with Burdette featured a search for the "crease" and a "war of wills."

They posit that the real war of wills was fought during the intermission of what they've come to call "halftime" in which Burdette was waiting for his sword. I never even considered the battle of wills, the psychology of mannerisms and such at play. Honor would also have been privy to Burdette's emotions much as she was privy to Summervale's and Young's emotions of fear before they died. Knowing your opponent is frightened may be an advantage in itself. Although frightened life forms can be deadly.

It would be nice to know the elapsed time it took to retrieve his sword. Interesting notion.


I don't think at this time in Honor's empathic development knowing Burdette's emotions would be helpful. Frankly I see it more as a hindrance because it would cloud her thinking. Generally speaking fear is a good emotion to have in a fight so long as you don't let it control you it helps heighten your reflexes. Given Burdette's thoughts I don't really think there was any battle of wills. Burdette was too cocky being one of the top 50 swordsmen on the planet and I can't think of a time in any of the books when honor was intimidated.

Not emotion(s). Honor simply needed to know one emotion. The screaming emotion of the "crease" during battle. My friends simply posit that knowing the other emotions associated with fear during halftime may have been helpful as well. And, we all quite agree that Honor's mind was clear of everything during the duel, even Nimitz' input. Nimitz would have wanted the moment he summoned the cavalry to cut through nothing but silence . . .

<NOW HONOR NOW!>

There was a battle of wills, such as it were. In fact, it perplexed Burdette that his act of the "dominance" over Honor during the beginning of the duel seemed to slide off of her like water off a Salamander's back. I can scare the passage up if need be. My friends simply posit that the more serious confrontation of wills happened during "halftime."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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