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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:54 pm

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cthia wrote:More importantly, removing any later chance of a scandal of epic proportions brought to Grayson and preserving the integrity of the People's Champion and more importantly the righteousness of Grayson's religious beliefs.

The Trial by Combat occurred in 1907 PD and about 16 years have gone by in which Honor has become the MVP; a heroine to Manticore and Grayson and perhaps even to Haven. So when should we expect this great unraveling of Grayson's faith to occur? It did not happen when Mueller was executed for his treason. We do not expect RFC to write about it in any upcoming stories.
Unlike your elaborate theory about Beowulf and karma, which could be answered by UH, we never expect to see a resolution to the theory you propose around Burdette's death. So there is no reason why you cannot continue to be conflicted, while the rest of us say good riddance.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:23 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:More importantly, removing any later chance of a scandal of epic proportions brought to Grayson and preserving the integrity of the People's Champion and more importantly the righteousness of Grayson's religious beliefs.

The Trial by Combat occurred in 1907 PD and about 16 years have gone by in which Honor has become the MVP; a heroine to Manticore and Grayson and perhaps even to Haven. So when should we expect this great unraveling of Grayson's faith to occur? It did not happen when Mueller was executed for his treason. We do not expect RFC to write about it in any upcoming stories.
Unlike your elaborate theory about Beowulf and karma, which could be answered by UH, we never expect to see a resolution to the theory you propose around Burdette's death. So there is no reason why you cannot continue to be conflicted, while the rest of us say good riddance.


Rest of us? You speaking for the masses? This discussion rages with over 75 people (in 23 cities across the globe now), not counting the forum. It'll continue long after you're gone and I'm sure will be a bit better off with your absence. The discussion has progressed much further in my social circles and I enjoy it immensely. So, see yourself out. I won't miss you.

As far as trusting your opinion (considering the source) that you have correctly digested UH as far the Beowulf thread you keep harping on? Pfff!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:38 pm

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cthia wrote: Rest of us? You speaking for the masses? This discussion rages with over 75 people (in 23 cities across the globe now), not counting the forum. It'll continue long after you're gone and I'm sure will be a bit better off with your absence. The discussion has progressed much further in my social circles and I enjoy it immensely. So, see yourself out. I won't miss you.

As far as trusting your opinion (considering the source) that you have correctly digested UH as far the Beowulf thread you keep harping on? Pfff!

Certainly I can only speak for what I have seen in the Forum and not for this great network you have.

Speaking of harping on Beowulf, in the Retirement Age thread you said the following
cthia wrote:Over in the Beowulf the Karma Suitsya thread, how could anyone doubt that the SLN and many Solarian League officers, not to mention many Solarian citizens would think Beowulf's actions were treasonous? How? Just how could anyone not see that? Judging by that thread, I am the only one who saw that! Unbelievable!

As you know perfectly well, pretty much everyone saw that and it was not the point of anyone's disagreement with you.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: Rest of us? You speaking for the masses? This discussion rages with over 75 people (in 23 cities across the globe now), not counting the forum. It'll continue long after you're gone and I'm sure will be a bit better off with your absence. The discussion has progressed much further in my social circles and I enjoy it immensely. So, see yourself out. I won't miss you.

As far as trusting your opinion (considering the source) that you have correctly digested UH as far the Beowulf thread you keep harping on? Pfff!

Certainly I can only speak for what I have seen in the Forum and not for this great network you have.

Speaking of harping on Beowulf, in the Retirement Age thread you said the following
cthia wrote:Over in the Beowulf the Karma Suitsya thread, how could anyone doubt that the SLN and many Solarian League officers, not to mention many Solarian citizens would think Beowulf's actions were treasonous? How? Just how could anyone not see that? Judging by that thread, I am the only one who saw that! Unbelievable!

As you know perfectly well, pretty much everyone saw that and it was not the point of anyone's disagreement with you.


What forum? Seems to still be raging here as well. Except for the two human speedbumps, the same consistent human speedbumps. Classroom cutups.

So, this isn't good riddance? I feel as sad as I did when my sister rang me and told me she couldn't bring me the peach cobbler she promised me this weekend on account of the snow.

Oh, my "great network of friends" that you don't think exist. Don't worry, they can hardly believe people like you exist either, who can't maturely discuss a novel without petty jealousies.

Losing an argument makes someone change the subject and accuse me of looking up Honor's skirt without permission. A "pastor" accused me of deceitfully trying to circumvent the author's fanfic rule??? "A preacher."

My enjoying book discussions simply can't be the truth. My father taught me to think and see outside the box "Where life is" when I was a snotty nosed kid.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:52 pm

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Exidor wrote:All-in-all, though - I'm about five-eighths convinced that all your arguments - be it regarding Honor's actions on Grayson, or how the Solarians viewed Beowolf as treasonous - are actually a way of getting around the fanfic restrictions Mr. Weber places on his work. :)
kzt wrote:You should realize that there is no evidence that he's ever actually read any of the books. As far as I can determine, his hornorvere arguments are solely this based on some article in some wiki somewhere.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:He has read the books thoroughly.

He just has the nerve to look under the skirt.

PeterZ wrote:If he looked up Honor's skirt, her armsmen would shoot him quick as a wink. They'd stop feeling guilty as soon as they realized what he was saying about her.

Now there several posters who challenge the story and back their views darned well. They aren't looking up anyone's skirts to do it either.
cthia wrote:I'm a perfect gentleman, Peter. I'll look away even when the wind blows a skirt aloft. But, I can't erase the glimpse.

Personally, I've never had a problem getting a woman to remove her skirt, for me.

Since I've got the balls and the confidence to simply ask Honor, eat your heart out.

PeterZ wrote:Ah, but the confidence to ask does not reflect the suavity necessary to succeed in the circumstances under discussion. The positions you are advocating are both insulting and demeaning to Honor. Undeservedly so in my opinion. Casting underserved blame at a woman is hardly an effective tactic to get her feeling intimate.
cthia wrote:
Peter, I would have been able to discuss anything with Honor. Since I'd have been sleeping with her from way back On Basilisk Station. I would have cried like a baby over what happened to Honor. As a Queen's officer I would have damn near self-destructed had I not even known her personally. She'd only have had to sample my emotions and she'd have asked me out. If left back in the Star Kingdom, I'd have raised more hell over what happened to her than ten Catherine Montaignes! But through it all, I'd still have told her she made a bad call, just like if Paul would have pointed out to her the scandal she could be bringing to Grayson. And she'd have accepted it.


Honor, has always been a bastion of truth. Honor, would not want anyone pussyfooting around that truth. Honor, would have no problem admitting that truth to herself and to the world, should it ever be presented to her. Honor, would admit that allowing Nimitz to remain during the duel was not the correct strategic decision under the circumstances regardless of whether or not she intended to shun the unfair advantage. Honor would realize the severity of the mistake on a planet like Grayson.

Honor is only human. She made an error in judgement that can greatly impact Grayson. There is no way that I think she intentionally cheated. I don't even think her focus was on being fair to Burdette. She was wounded. Tired. Hungry. Angry. Sleepy and grieving. And she wanted to sever - Burdette's ties with the world along with his neck. Many professionals make an error in judgement in the midst of a lack of sleep and a whole lot less problems than Honor had.


But the THING is irrefutable.

Whether it went down like that or no, after learning her secret, would you not cry like a bitch about the unfairness of it all, if it was your head on the chopping block? Sure you wouldn't. :roll:

As I have argued, this is not cheating. She is executing the SOB, not giving him a fair chance to live. She isn't competing in a contest meant to text specific skills. Honor isn't playing a game. Honor isn't trying engage Burdette in any way other than trying to kill him. She is sanctioned by the Protector to do that one thing. That is to kill Burdette with a sword. Even if Honor was a powerful telepath who knew every action Burdette will take as soon as he decided to take that action, it still would not have been cheating, immoral or unjust for her to use that skill to kill the SOB.

This is not a contest in the legal sense. It is an execution. The trial element was settled when Burdette admitted guilt. Burdette is morally in the wrong any way his actions are viewed, so cannot claim moral justification for his awful actions that include murder. Your claim that Honor had to give that guilty bigot a better chance to survive in order to be just is ludicrous. The law asserted that he deserved death and Honor gave it to him. Punct Schloss!

This'll be my last post on the subject. There is nothing to be learned from continuing.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:06 am

cthia
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PeterZ wrote:
Exidor wrote:All-in-all, though - I'm about five-eighths convinced that all your arguments - be it regarding Honor's actions on Grayson, or how the Solarians viewed Beowolf as treasonous - are actually a way of getting around the fanfic restrictions Mr. Weber places on his work. :)
kzt wrote:You should realize that there is no evidence that he's ever actually read any of the books. As far as I can determine, his hornorvere arguments are solely this based on some article in some wiki somewhere.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:He has read the books thoroughly.

He just has the nerve to look under the skirt.

PeterZ wrote:If he looked up Honor's skirt, her armsmen would shoot him quick as a wink. They'd stop feeling guilty as soon as they realized what he was saying about her.

Now there several posters who challenge the story and back their views darned well. They aren't looking up anyone's skirts to do it either.
cthia wrote:I'm a perfect gentleman, Peter. I'll look away even when the wind blows a skirt aloft. But, I can't erase the glimpse.

Personally, I've never had a problem getting a woman to remove her skirt, for me.

Since I've got the balls and the confidence to simply ask Honor, eat your heart out.

PeterZ wrote:Ah, but the confidence to ask does not reflect the suavity necessary to succeed in the circumstances under discussion. The positions you are advocating are both insulting and demeaning to Honor. Undeservedly so in my opinion. Casting underserved blame at a woman is hardly an effective tactic to get her feeling intimate.
cthia wrote:
Peter, I would have been able to discuss anything with Honor. Since I'd have been sleeping with her from way back On Basilisk Station. I would have cried like a baby over what happened to Honor. As a Queen's officer I would have damn near self-destructed had I not even known her personally. She'd only have had to sample my emotions and she'd have asked me out. If left back in the Star Kingdom, I'd have raised more hell over what happened to her than ten Catherine Montaignes! But through it all, I'd still have told her she made a bad call, just like if Paul would have pointed out to her the scandal she could be bringing to Grayson. And she'd have accepted it.


Honor, has always been a bastion of truth. Honor, would not want anyone pussyfooting around that truth. Honor, would have no problem admitting that truth to herself and to the world, should it ever be presented to her. Honor, would admit that allowing Nimitz to remain during the duel was not the correct strategic decision under the circumstances regardless of whether or not she intended to shun the unfair advantage. Honor would realize the severity of the mistake on a planet like Grayson.

Honor is only human. She made an error in judgement that can greatly impact Grayson. There is no way that I think she intentionally cheated. I don't even think her focus was on being fair to Burdette. She was wounded. Tired. Hungry. Angry. Sleepy and grieving. And she wanted to sever - Burdette's ties with the world along with his neck. Many professionals make an error in judgement in the midst of a lack of sleep and a whole lot less problems than Honor had.


But the THING is irrefutable.

Whether it went down like that or no, after learning her secret, would you not cry like a bitch about the unfairness of it all, if it was your head on the chopping block? Sure you wouldn't. :roll:

As I have argued, this is not cheating. She is executing the SOB, not giving him a fair chance to live. She isn't competing in a contest meant to text specific skills. Honor isn't playing a game. Honor isn't trying engage Burdette in any way other than trying to kill him. She is sanctioned by the Protector to do that one thing. That is to kill Burdette with a sword. Even if Honor was a powerful telepath who knew every action Burdette will take as soon as he decided to take that action, it still would not have been cheating, immoral or unjust for her to use that skill to kill the SOB.

This is not a contest in the legal sense. It is an execution. The trial element was settled when Burdette admitted guilt. Burdette is morally in the wrong any way his actions are viewed, so cannot claim moral justification for his awful actions that include murder. Your claim that Honor had to give that guilty bigot a better chance to survive in order to be just is ludicrous. The law asserted that he deserved death and Honor gave it to him. Punct Schloss!

This'll be my last post on the subject. There is nothing to be learned from continuing.

Yes, she is executing the SOB.
NOT she AND Nimitz. 2 agin 1.
I won't even reiterate the other objections.

Adios! Birds of a feather flap together.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:48 am

cthia
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By most of your standards, Nimitz should have P-thirty-eighted Burdette himself. That would have gone down great on Grayson too. All throughout the series Honor chose to leave Nimitz in his quarters when she knew he would be too emotionally invested to remain neutral about two-leg business. :roll:

She simply failed to do so, this time.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:13 am

cthia
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Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:10 am

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cthia wrote:P-38.


That's a P-38, Eh. Canadian can opener. :p
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Daryl   » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:25 am

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Talk about "Much Ado About Nothing".
This is a novel, well researched and written, but a novel.
I honestly believe that there is only one person who believes that in this fictional story, the fictional heroine acted unfairly by not saying "Hey, remember I'm a genie with slightly quicker reflexes and slightly more strength than my weight suggests, plus that I'm not sure but lately I seem to have a sixth sense about what others are feeling? So why not be a good lad and just wait for the hangman?"
At this point in this fictional novel, the villain has noticed that the heroine is female (therefore by his culture weaker and softer), wounded, and exhausted. He also knows that he has practiced for years at this martial art, and attained a high rank, while she has only had a few months in a busy schedule to "play" with the sword. I'd be putting money on the villain. Mind you I imagine that if he had won this, his life would have been short anyway, as he would be known as a killer of children, plus someone who took advantage of a potentially breeding female and killed her while she was injured and exhausted. Not a fair test.
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