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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:40 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Burdette had just discovered that his involvement in the dome collapse and the plot to kill Harrington (both of which caused multiple deaths- including those of children in the dome and the Head of the Church in the assisantion attempt) and that came in a broadcast meeting of the Protector and the Steadholders.
He had a fairly limited choice of action at that point. Get lead off under arrest for a trial (possibly more than one) under Grayson Law, or invoke the Trial by Combat provision and seek the nominal approval of God (under Grayson Law) if he won.
Lets see: Names have been named, consperiacy documented and the digging hasn't even begun to see all of who elce was invlovled or (it gets better) what else Burdette, his family and his co-consperitors had been up to. By invoking the Trial by Combat and announcing his responsibility he is looking to (probably) put all of those civil/crimianl problems behind him- if he wins. On the other hand, he, a great champion competitor with the sword, is facing what he belives is a perhaps tallented neophyte with the sword who is both exhausted and injured. Those conditions of his opponent have NO LEGAL BEARING on his ability to challange her though they are certainly going to be questioned later as -mostly in private- if he wins and his actions are therefor "approved" by God.

They cynical look at this is that he saw a massivly better chance for survival (no trial in criminal and treason charges-all that messy secular stuff) and the only way left to him-after the disclosures in the hall- of damaging the Protector. He wins and he is vindicated. He looses? How can he lose, he's the master swordsman.

The present discussion is very much like all those people after Honor's duel with Pavel Young...things like, she shot him several times before killing him, yet not including that he had 1) shot early, 2, shot her in the back, 3 and only had an empty gun because he emptied it mostly at her back. You know, the guy who hired a professional duelest to hurt her by challanging and then killing her lover.


Burdette's choice to fight was the best option he had. His approach to the fight showed his lack of understanding. That point was made bt many and I agree. Enough said there.

Young was a worthless fool that hated Honor enough to die to kill her. His only chance at killing her was to cheat and to cheat in a duel was to die. He should have remained true to his cowardly nature and declined the challenge move to the Solarian League and worked to achieve killing Honor from afar. Instead he chose his most immediate opportunity to kill Honor by accepting the challenge and the option of cheating to kill her. He chose to die in the hope, forlorn as it was, to take her with him. What a fool.

It could be made to appear that Honor cheated as well. Honor's ability flawlessly detects the crease. It is like building an electromechanical detector and having it implanted into your head to give you a woefully unfair edge in this particular contest. A contest based on faith.

Honor cannot prove that she didn't cheat and it could certainly be made to appear as if she did, bringing unnecessary strife upon the entire faith based system on Grayson.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:00 pm

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Rubbishy, cthia! Honor did not get her shot off first against Young. He turned and shot early. Honor did not have a proven sensitivity to emotions by then. The books suggested that her loss of Paul began her becoming sensitive.
As for Burdette, even if she had sensed his crease she would not have cheated by Grayson standards. God acts through His children and Honor's sensitivity was something anyone in that room would recognize as a gift from Him. No one in Manticore or Beowulf would have considered using a natural talent cheating. Not even if that natural talent was unique. Burdette made the challenge and got what he deserved for choosing a course of action leading to death.

If you believe using a God given talent to defend against a criminal murderer is cheating, cthia, you missed the point of that story arc.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:34 pm

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Over the course of my tenure on the forum, it has been interesting to submit notions that find themselves in opposition against most people. My controversial notions come at you blind and they are deeply embedded under the skin of storyline. They also require making other mental connections before you can understand them. It is interesting to note when these other mental connections are made in time. Oftentimes I mention when these connections are finally made and link them to long lost discussions. In this particular discussion it has already happened twice. It is also quite interesting when people fail to even realize that their own notions support mine, without even realizing it, hence my claim that "Oftentimes they eventually come around."

Daryl's notion leads to the same fork in the road. But so too does tlb's notion lead to the same fork in the road. Yet tlb doesn't seem to understand that his own notion supports that in which he argues against . . .
tlb wrote:I very much doubt that the rules of the dueling code would be changed much: perhaps some limits on the choice of weapon,

The Protector's Champion cannot be allowed to choose a weapon that detects the crease. Nor can she smuggle that weapon into the duel. Nor can she bring that weapon to the duel without full disclosure on a faith based planet like Grayson - where squirming worms tend to have a diet of steroids.

So, tlb, if you meditate on your own notion, you'll come around. Unless you'd like to argue against yourself. You seem to agree that some safeguards may eventually have to be adopted. You simply can't see that the time for your notion came along with Honor. ::shrug::

Also, admitting to a plan that inadvertently killed children is NOT the same as premeditatedly planning to kill children.

AND . . . please understand that within every true Christian . . .

Trial by Faith supersedes Trial by Combat.


****** *

SCENARIO:

When I was a kid there was an annual Easter Egg Hunt held at Easter. Kids had to find hidden eggs scattered about the grasses. There was always one special egg painted differently than all the other eggs that was especially valuable. The value being some prize that a kid would really want, like the latest game machine. Imagine the same contest as adults. But the special egg is now worth TEN MILLION DOLLARS!

Well, everyone enters the contest. It is suddenly revealed that a certain woman in the contest named Honor has a friend that can detect the special egg. Do you want that friend there?

"Hey, that thing can detect the special egg!"
"He won't tell her!"
"Says who!?"
"He won't tell her."
"Will you watch him and see that he doesn't whisper it or something? Or give some sort of signal? Can we just get him out of here!?"

If the ability is discovered after the contest, someone may be hunted down and killed over TEN MILLION dollars. On Grayson, ten million austins isn't on the line. Simply their souls.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:05 am

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PeterZ wrote:Rubbishy, cthia! Honor did not get her shot off first against Young. He turned and shot early. Honor did not have a proven sensitivity to emotions by then. The books suggested that her loss of Paul began her becoming sensitive.
As for Burdette, even if she had sensed his crease she would not have cheated by Grayson standards. God acts through His children and Honor's sensitivity was something anyone in that room would recognize as a gift from Him. No one in Manticore or Beowulf would have considered using a natural talent cheating. Not even if that natural talent was unique. Burdette made the challenge and got what he deserved for choosing a course of action leading to death.

If you believe using a God given talent to defend against a criminal murderer is cheating, cthia, you missed the point of that story arc.

The can-o-worms in question squirm only on Grayson.

PeterZ wrote:She would not have cheated by Grayson standards?
Which standards are those? (1)The standards of an unrighteous Sacristy which is being misled by a corrupt Protector brainwashed by his fornicating harlot or (2)The true standards of the Church or (3)The standards of Tester?

PeterZ wrote:God acts through His children and Honor's sensitivity was something anyone in that room would recognize as a gift from Him. No one in Manticore or Beowulf would have considered using a natural talent cheating. Not even if that natural talent was unique. Burdette made the challenge and got what he deserved for choosing a course of action leading to death.

If you believe using a God given talent to defend against a criminal murderer is cheating, cthia, you missed the point of that story arc.

Using a God given talent unrighteously or unrighteously using a God given talent to kill is worse than cheating in the eyes of God.

If you cannot understand that then you've missed the entire teachings of the Bible. Unless you think Harrington can do no wrong.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:59 am

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The point you constantly miss is that God is neither impotent nor is he restrained from acting. To a Grayson Honor is incapable of using her gifts from God to unrighteously to defeat a righteous opponent in that Test of God, from God and performed before God. The outcome of the religious Trial by Combat revealed God's Will to Grayson's leadership. Burdette could not use his training and experience to defeat a righteous woman fighting to bring a murdering fanatic to God's Justice in her Test of Life. God did not allow that outcome because Honor met and prevailed in the Test He gave her. Asserting she was not righteous ignores that primary tenet of Grayson's religious doctrine.

Switching religions and revisiting Honor's trial by combat. Burdette murdered innocents to further his political goals and claim justification in God's name. Honor made the accusation to the legal authorities responsible for administering secular justice to a Steadholder. The Steadholder in question issued a legal challenge that required Honor to fight him to the death after admitting his guilt for those crimes. Burdette chose to be tried in a court of law with Honor as judge, jury and executioner where his punishment would be decided by his survival. If Honor killed him, the legal punishment administered by the duly appointed agent of the state was death. If he killed Honor, his punishment for those actions he confessed guilt is nothing. It doesn't matter if she had telepathy. He challenged her to combat using her natural skills with a sword. Her skills made her more deadly and she killed him. No cheating involved since no rules were broken. No moral expectations were disregarded because the only expectations of the combatants was to use their natural abilities with a sword to kill their opponents and secure Burdette's punishment. Since Burdette was guilty as sin, there was no unrighteousness on Honor's part. God knows he is guilty. Honor knows he is guilty. Everyone in the room knew he was guilty because he confessed for Heaven's sake! Killing him as she did was carrying out his earned punishment of execution by a duly appointed agent of the state.

Honor legally executed the idiot in a trial by combat which not only proved Burdette's guilt that he already confessed to but also proved the unrighteousness of Burdette's actions. There is no application of the Bible to Honor's killing of Burdette which supports her lack of righteousness. You are grasping at straws or misunderstanding the situation in question.
Last edited by PeterZ on Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:12 am

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PeterZ wrote:The point you constantly miss is that God is neither impotent nor is he restrained from acting. To a Grayson Honor is incapable of using her gifts from God to unrighteously to defeat a righteous opponent in that Test of God, from God and performed before God. The outcome of the religious Trial by Combat revealed God's Will to Grayson's leadership. Burdette could not use his training and experience to defeat a righteous woman fighting to bring a murdering fanatic to God's Justice in her Test of Life. God did not allow that outcome because Honor met and prevailed in the Test He gave her. Asserting she was not righteous ignores that primary tenet of Grayson's religious doctrine.

Switching religions and revisiting Honor's trial by combat. Burdette murdered innocents to further his political goals and claim justification in God's name. Honor made the accusation to the legal authorities responsible for administering secular justice to a Steadholder. The Steadholder in question issued a legal challenge that required Honor to fight him to the death. She accepted that challenge which had NO LEGAL OR MORAL prohibition against her using her natural skills to apply he cutting edge of a sword to the idiot that challenged her. It doesn't matter if she had telepathy. He challenged her to combat using her natural skills with a sword. Her skills made her more deadly and she killed him. No cheating involved since no rules were broken. No moral expectations were disregarded because the only expectations of the combatants was to use their natural abilities with a sword to kill their opponents. Since Burdette was guilty as sin, there was no unrighteousness on Honor's part. God knows he is guilty. Honor knows he is guilty. Everyone in the room knew he was guilty because he confessed for Heaven's sake! Killing him as she did was carrying out his earned punishment of execution by a duly appointed agent of the state.

Honor legally executed the idiot in a trial by combat which not only proved Burdette's guilt that he already confessed to but also proved the unrighteousness of Burdette's actions. There is no application of the Bible to Honor's killing of Burdette which supports her lack of righteousness. You are grasping at straws or misunderstanding the situation in question.

And if God has to choose the lesser of two evils or the importance of two completely different stakes? Honor is not infallible.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:18 am

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cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The point you constantly miss is that God is neither impotent nor is he restrained from acting. To a Grayson Honor is incapable of using her gifts from God to unrighteously to defeat a righteous opponent in that Test of God, from God and performed before God. The outcome of the religious Trial by Combat revealed God's Will to Grayson's leadership. Burdette could not use his training and experience to defeat a righteous woman fighting to bring a murdering fanatic to God's Justice in her Test of Life. God did not allow that outcome because Honor met and prevailed in the Test He gave her. Asserting she was not righteous ignores that primary tenet of Grayson's religious doctrine.

Switching religions and revisiting Honor's trial by combat. Burdette murdered innocents to further his political goals and claim justification in God's name. Honor made the accusation to the legal authorities responsible for administering secular justice to a Steadholder. The Steadholder in question issued a legal challenge that required Honor to fight him to the death. She accepted that challenge which had NO LEGAL OR MORAL prohibition against her using her natural skills to apply he cutting edge of a sword to the idiot that challenged her. It doesn't matter if she had telepathy. He challenged her to combat using her natural skills with a sword. Her skills made her more deadly and she killed him. No cheating involved since no rules were broken. No moral expectations were disregarded because the only expectations of the combatants was to use their natural abilities with a sword to kill their opponents. Since Burdette was guilty as sin, there was no unrighteousness on Honor's part. God knows he is guilty. Honor knows he is guilty. Everyone in the room knew he was guilty because he confessed for Heaven's sake! Killing him as she did was carrying out his earned punishment of execution by a duly appointed agent of the state.

Honor legally executed the idiot in a trial by combat which not only proved Burdette's guilt that he already confessed to but also proved the unrighteousness of Burdette's actions. There is no application of the Bible to Honor's killing of Burdette which supports her lack of righteousness. You are grasping at straws or misunderstanding the situation in question.

And if God has to choose the lesser of two evils or the importance of two completely different stakes? Honor is not infallible.

Honor's judgement was not needed. Burdette admitted his guilt. Honor just needed to kill the SOB and execute the punishment Burdette asked for when he challenged her.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:44 am

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cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The point you constantly miss is that God is neither impotent nor is he restrained from acting. To a Grayson Honor is incapable of using her gifts from God to unrighteously to defeat a righteous opponent in that Test of God, from God and performed before God. The outcome of the religious Trial by Combat revealed God's Will to Grayson's leadership. Burdette could not use his training and experience to defeat a righteous woman fighting to bring a murdering fanatic to God's Justice in her Test of Life. God did not allow that outcome because Honor met and prevailed in the Test He gave her. Asserting she was not righteous ignores that primary tenet of Grayson's religious doctrine.

Switching religions and revisiting Honor's trial by combat. Burdette murdered innocents to further his political goals and claim justification in God's name. Honor made the accusation to the legal authorities responsible for administering secular justice to a Steadholder. The Steadholder in question issued a legal challenge that required Honor to fight him to the death. She accepted that challenge which had NO LEGAL OR MORAL prohibition against her using her natural skills to apply he cutting edge of a sword to the idiot that challenged her. It doesn't matter if she had telepathy. He challenged her to combat using her natural skills with a sword. Her skills made her more deadly and she killed him. No cheating involved since no rules were broken. No moral expectations were disregarded because the only expectations of the combatants was to use their natural abilities with a sword to kill their opponents. Since Burdette was guilty as sin, there was no unrighteousness on Honor's part. God knows he is guilty. Honor knows he is guilty. Everyone in the room knew he was guilty because he confessed for Heaven's sake! Killing him as she did was carrying out his earned punishment of execution by a duly appointed agent of the state.

Honor legally executed the idiot in a trial by combat which not only proved Burdette's guilt that he already confessed to but also proved the unrighteousness of Burdette's actions. There is no application of the Bible to Honor's killing of Burdette which supports her lack of righteousness. You are grasping at straws or misunderstanding the situation in question.

And if God has to choose the lesser of two evils or the importance of two completely different stakes? Honor is not infallible.

PeterZ wrote:Honor's judgement was not needed. Burdette admitted his guilt. Honor just needed to kill the SOB and execute the punishment Burdette asked for when he challenged her.

Burdette only admitted to breaking secular laws in defense of the fate of Grayson. Burdette was looking at the big picture. Same as our military does when we consciously accept collateral damage and kill innocent by-standing children in a bomb attack to take out terrorists. The big picture.

To God, any man can unrighteously use his talents to kill an opponent. It is argued that God favors America, the country who once believed in the notion engraved on its currency "In God We Trust." All talents can be considered God given. Even those given unto a country. The fact that a being even realizes that there is a God, is a God given talent. Therefore, all Christians have a God given talent. Are you saying that no Christian can commit unrighteous acts?

The fact that Honor won has no bearing whatsoever on whether God approved of her or the Protector's actions. Ultimately, Burdette may have won. His fight wasn't with Honor, it was with that arrogant upstart Benjamin Mayhew and his god-forsaken restoration. Burdette simply had to go through Benjamin's deceitful fornicating whore to defeat him.

The real transgression is misleading even one of God's children away from the church because it appears to be corrupt, unfair, unjust, unrighteous and deceitful.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:12 am

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Honor is the e executor of secular justice in this affair. She literally is the legal executioner of Burdette. She is carrying out her responsibilities to Protector Benjamin. She is using her God given talents to execute an admitted murderer as legally appointed agent of the state. The Bible supports the state's responsibility to define and execute secular justice. Because this is true, Honor is not unrighteous in killing Burdette on behalf of the state. The Bible allowed everything that was done to Burdette.

Burdette killed children. He set up the disaster knowing people would die. He could have had the best motives in the world and his choice of the means to bring those admirable results would have doomed his efforts in God's eyes. Burdette may have believed the Reverend was leading Grayson's away from God. He is free to believe that. That belief does not ensure he is correct. Nor does that belief give him the authority to set policies he believes just. Those are the provinces of the a Reverend and Protector. Lastly, Burdette tried to coerce compliance with his beliefs rather than continue to persuade. He tried to deny the very free will God granted in his attempts at coercion.

You are wrong in so many ways cthia it's not even funny.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Daryl   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:11 am

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In regard to
It is argued that God favors America, the country who once believed in the notion engraved on its currency "In God We Trust." All talents can be considered God given. Even those given unto a country. The fact that a being even realizes that there is a God, is a God given talent. Therefore, all Christians have a God given talent. Are you saying that no Christian can commit unrighteous acts
? Dylan covered that well with "With God on Our Side" and "Masters of War".
In our real world god is impotent, not one provable intervention has been recorded. In the Honorverse, the Graysons may well believe that the Tester is fully potent, and this gives secular validity to Honor's win.
The death of children is particularly disturbing to them, for the obvious reason that in their history so few children survive, but also as the slain children haven't had their opportunity to be tested.
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