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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:14 am

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my one post on this matter.


in Changer of worlds (honorverse anthlogy 3, first story) nimitiz tells his clan that even now, she (Honor) does not realise that she (Honor) is now reading the emotions, instead of just picking up what nimitz sends her, meaning that her control is still less then what she will have later, and this is at least 2 T years after the fight. This story take place in the gap between book 6 and 7.

but Citha is right to some extent that the ability to sense emotions could be seen as an unfair advantage by someone trying to twist things, though i'd say the years of martial arts training and the ability to recognise when someone will make a move and automatically countering it, as seen in her sparring matches in book 6, is a much greater one.


Burdette chose the fight: he could have taken his chances with a court, slim as they were, if he didn't know what he was facing that was his fault. EVERYONE saw the footage of Honor rescuing Benjamin and co when the assassins attacked.

even if Honor had disclosed her ability, what would it have changed? His only way of avoiding the trial and its guaranteed death sentence was to fight the protectors champion.

a proxy fight where Honor or both are replaced might work but he would be known as the coward who wasn't willing to face a mere woman, neither his ego or the other opposition keys would been happy with that. so she can sense his emotions? all he was feeling was anger, anticipation and glorious purpose.

yes she had an advantage he didn't. several in fact, empath, 40 years of martial arts, actual live combat experience both up close and more distant.

Burdette had trained with the sword for decades and was the better swordsman, he was also fresh and unwounded.

so it wasn't a fair fight on EITHER side, with both having advantages the other did not and could not be given anytime soon. so as both were at a disadvantage against the other it was as fair as it was possible to make it.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:57 pm

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cthia wrote:Of course it was a slam on me. The same old tired-ass slam I always get from him. Hence my sarcastic response. You didn't understand karma, having trouble with sarcasm too? Wikipedia will help!

OTOH, you admit that he slammed me, but that I'm the one being childish and abusive. But then, you've always been a bit slow in matters yourself. Since you've personally deputized yourself and are keeping score, you see.

And, your understanding of the Bible leaves much to be desired. I know from many of the religious threads what I am up against on this matter. It doesn't surprise me. Though it does sadden me.

If the conversation delves too deeply under the skin, no need to pick fights. Pick less cerebral topics, like the performance of tech.

I would not be surprised to learn that you know more about the Bible than I do; since this is not a Christian discussion group, it normally does not matter.

I am sorry that you think there is something personal between us, instead of recognizing that you spin out so many opinions that you generate much more to disagree with than others. You must not have noticed that I have had some strong arguments with quite possibly a cat and others.

I do recognize the sarcasm in your remark about my lack of understanding. It would be more correct to say that I disagree in general with your use of the concept of karma and also with your specific application of it to Beowulf. Have you read to the end of UH yet?

Saying KZT slammed you and saying your response was less than measured are not mutually exclusive. Actually I would have preferred that he had not posted that, so you could have said what you think of the religious component of Trial by Combat. It deflected you from something more cerebral.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:26 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Of course it was a slam on me. The same old tired-ass slam I always get from him. Hence my sarcastic response. You didn't understand karma, having trouble with sarcasm too? Wikipedia will help!

OTOH, you admit that he slammed me, but that I'm the one being childish and abusive. But then, you've always been a bit slow in matters yourself. Since you've personally deputized yourself and are keeping score, you see.

And, your understanding of the Bible leaves much to be desired. I know from many of the religious threads what I am up against on this matter. It doesn't surprise me. Though it does sadden me.

If the conversation delves too deeply under the skin, no need to pick fights. Pick less cerebral topics, like the performance of tech.

I would not be surprised to learn that you know more about the Bible than I do; since this is not a Christian discussion group, it normally does not matter.

I am sorry that you think there is something personal between us, instead of recognizing that you spin out so many opinions that you generate much more to disagree with than others. You must not have noticed that I have had some strong arguments with quite possibly a cat and others.

I do recognize the sarcasm in your remark about my lack of understanding. It would be more correct to say that I disagree in general with your use of the concept of karma and also with your specific application of it to Beowulf. Have you read to the end of UH yet?

Saying KZT slammed you and saying your response was less than measured are not mutually exclusive. Actually I would have preferred that he had not posted that, so you could have said what you think of the religious component of Trial by Combat. It deflected you from something more cerebral.

The sarcasm was directed at kzt. It was measured.

It had been delayed, not deflected. Had been. If no response comes, it is because I grow weary of seeking passionate conversation with kids. I'm quite sure kzt's trolling attempt is simply to kill the thread. My friends have been referring to conversation killers like that "human speedbumps" for years. He's a cranky old guy who hates the humor thread. Despite everyone else begging for more.

I apologize that my passionate manner of discussion comes off as abusive. I was warned about that years ago by my friends. "It's a shame they don't know you or they'd be laughing their asses off at many of your posts. We can see your silly mannerisms and facial expressions."

I'm a passionate discusser of books. Oftentimes my posts are put together while driving by. They are not meant to be offensive or abusive, but my compassion and passion is very real. I can see where it may be misconstrued at times - other than those times where someone actually has managed to get under my skin.

Try listening to 27 people in a conference call passionately discussing many of the topics. We laugh for hours.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:37 am

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The very second post of this thread comes from the insight of Dieu_Le_Fera . . .

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:When disagreements come up in religious thought, even when in the same sect, it can have some very bad consequences. The fact that both Grayson and Masada are so fervent in their beliefs would have just compounded the issue no matter how it started.

Excellent.

Although the disease which is the Masadans have been kicked off-planet, all of the disease that is Masadan rhetoric and mindset hasn't been completely eradicated. Benjamin and his reforms are far enough removed from the mindset of his Opposition to be labeled as Masadan vs Grayson.

Mindsets are far enough apart between the Protector and his dissidents that in a way he probably still feel the Masadans are there.

That can of worms can cause severe problems on Grayson fueled by that mindset. I think many of you would realize it if you would stop to really consider the discussion. A discussion that progresses much farther in my social circles. An environment where immaturity and disrespect is removed.

When I say the conversation rages hot and heavy in 22 cities across the globe, it is true. When I say rage, I mean it in the nicest way. My group of friends enjoy conversation with substance. We're passionate about it. Over the last two years now we enjoy transatlantic calls with as many as 17 people for hours. It is a skill to master transatlantic conference calls with so many people with up to a 3 second delay during high latency hours. We get a taste of communicating via FTL. Try to keep your passion for 6 seconds, minimum. And up to 16 minutes, thus far, maximum before it is your turn to speak again. LOL

But, we enjoy our conversations which are devoid of childish jealousies, niches, and wanton disagreement. As a result, the conversations are much more interesting because they are allowed to naturally develop and proceed unhindered and dotted with "human speedbumps." That is what my foreign friends have been calling it for years - kzt's latest attempt that stalls threads. I suppose it is called trolling.

The present can of worms rages. We've had as many as 27 people tied in on one conference call discussing this can of worms. There is another scheduled conference call soon. Over 15 people have indicated they'll jack in. Since these conversations proceed unfettered without "speedbumps" interesting notions come out. Like Vlad's comment about not wanting to be an armsman around a half naked beautiful woman dripping wet who can essentially read minds along with a cat who does the same.

Would anyone here want to live near someone who can read minds? Work with them? Socialize with them?

Honor is the only one in the galaxy who can do that.


Chapter 20 FiE wrote:Lady Dame Honor Harrington, Countess and Steadholder Harrington, took three quick steps and bounced on her toes. The diving board flexed sharply, and she arced through the air to enter the water with scarcely a splash. Ripples turned the surface to wavy glass, but the pool was crystal clear, and Senior Chief Steward James MacGuiness watched her glide over its tiled bottom with a dolphin's grace. She planed up to the surface, then rolled and backstroked towards the far end of the fifty-meter pool on the final leg of her regular morning swim.

Harrington House's crystoplast dome muted the strength of Grayson's F6 primary, and a sleek, six-limbed treecat opened grass-green eyes in a puddle of filtered sunlight atop a poolside table as MacGuiness draped a towel over his arm and crossed to the pool steps. The 'cat rose and stretched his sinuous, sixty-centimeter body luxuriously, then sat upright on his four rearmost limbs. He curled his fluffy, prehensile tail about his true-feet and hand-paws, and a lazy yawn bared needle fangs in an unmistakable grin of amused tolerance as he watched his dripping person emerge from the pool. She wrung out her shoulder-length braid before she accepted MacGuiness' towel with a murmured thanks, and the 'cat shook his head. Treecats hated getting wet, but Nimitz had adopted Honor Harrington forty T-years before. He'd had plenty of time to get used to her sometimes peculiar notions of enjoyment.

Major Andrew LaFollet of the Harrington Steadholder's Guard hadn't, and he did his best not to look uncomfortable as the Steadholder wrapped the towel about herself. Despite his youth, the major was the HSG's second ranking officer and very, very good at his job. He was also Lady Harrington's personal armsman and the head of her permanent security team, and Grayson law required that a steadholder be accompanied by his—or, in Lady Harrington's very special case, her—bodyguards at all times. It was a requirement LaFollet knew she'd found less than easy to accept, yet there were times he and his fellows found the arrangement even less comfortable than she did.

snip

Still, there were times he wished she were just a little like a traditional Grayson woman. His own concepts of propriety had been—"expanded" was the best word for it—as her armsman, but he was still a Grayson. He'd tackled the task of learning to swim and completed a life-saving course out of grim devotion to duty and, to his own surprise, found he enjoyed it. Most of her security detail did, though Jamie Candless still harbored pronounced reservations. They'd even taken to spending many of their own off-duty hours in the Steadholder's pool, but Lady Harrington's swimsuit was an armed assault on Grayson mores. LaFollet's standards had become progressively less "proper" over the past year—which he was prepared to admit, intellectually, was probably a good thing—yet he was guiltily aware of the ingrained criteria of his rearing whenever he watched his Steadholder swim.

He knew she'd made concessions. Her one-piece suit was positively dowdy by Manticoran standards, but the corner of his mind where the most basic elements of socialization lived insisted she might as well be naked. Worse, she'd received the newest, most efficient prolong treatment in early childhood. She looked absurdly youthful, and her exotic, almond-eyed, strongly carved beauty and athletic grace threatened to provoke a highly improper response in the major. She was thirteen T-years older than he, yet she looked like someone's younger sister, and he had no business at all thinking of his Steadholder as the most attractive woman he knew—especially not while her soaked swimsuit clung to every supple curve.

Now he stood with his back to her while she finished drying, then heaved a mental sigh of relief as she accepted a robe from MacGuiness and belted its sash. She settled into the poolside chair, and he turned back to take his proper place at her shoulder and felt his lips twitch as she looked up with one of her small, crooked smiles. It wasn't much of a smile, and the tiny hesitation as the left corner of her mouth obeyed its rebuilt, artificial nerves pulled it off center, but it showed she knew what he was thinking, and her amusement was far too gentle to resent. There was nothing taunting or condescending about it. It was a wry, shared awareness of the differences in their birth societies—nothing more—and just seeing it warmed his heart. Darkness lurked behind it even now, and he knew how quickly and unexpectedly it could be quenched, yet the grief and loss which had weighed upon her for far too long had begun to ease at last. It was a slow and painful process, but he was profoundly grateful it had begun. He could stand a little embarrassment if it made Lady Harrington smile, and he shrugged to acknowledge their shared awareness of his harassed cultural parochialism.

Honor Harrington's smile broadened at her armsman's acknowledgment of his own sense of the absurd, and then she looked away as MacGuiness uncovered a tray and set it on the table with a flourish.

Poor LaFollet. Good thing he had his back to her to hide his "gun" threatening to burst through material. Although he knew that she knew it was loaded and he knew that she knew he knew that she knew.

Up to 27 people laughing on a conference call.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:59 am

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Dauntless wrote:my one post on this matter.


in Changer of worlds (honorverse anthlogy 3, first story) nimitiz tells his clan that even now, she (Honor) does not realise that she (Honor) is now reading the emotions, instead of just picking up what nimitz sends her, meaning that her control is still less then what she will have later, and this is at least 2 T years after the fight. This story take place in the gap between book 6 and 7.

but Citha is right to some extent that the ability to sense emotions could be seen as an unfair advantage by someone trying to twist things, though i'd say the years of martial arts training and the ability to recognise when someone will make a move and automatically countering it, as seen in her sparring matches in book 6, is a much greater one.


Burdette chose the fight: he could have taken his chances with a court, slim as they were, if he didn't know what he was facing that was his fault. EVERYONE saw the footage of Honor rescuing Benjamin and co when the assassins attacked.

even if Honor had disclosed her ability, what would it have changed? His only way of avoiding the trial and its guaranteed death sentence was to fight the protectors champion.

a proxy fight where Honor or both are replaced might work but he would be known as the coward who wasn't willing to face a mere woman, neither his ego or the other opposition keys would been happy with that. so she can sense his emotions? all he was feeling was anger, anticipation and glorious purpose.

yes she had an advantage he didn't. several in fact, empath, 40 years of martial arts, actual live combat experience both up close and more distant.

Burdette had trained with the sword for decades and was the better swordsman, he was also fresh and unwounded.

so it wasn't a fair fight on EITHER side, with both having advantages the other did not and could not be given anytime soon. so as both were at a disadvantage against the other it was as fair as it was possible to make it.

That seems to strengthen my position even more. IOW, Honor isn't just relying on what Nimitz sends her, passive sensors. Her ability is more active. LOL

Again, divulging her abilities would have cleared her from scandal later. CYA, cover your ass. And it would have put the ball in Burdette's court whether to accept the punishment for his crimes or take his chances with Honor. No opportunity for a later scandal and Honor preserves her integrity.

Thanks for the post dauntless.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Daryl   » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:59 am

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Children are revered and treasured there, and Burdette caused the death of many of them, plus the death of their senior churchman.
As to "No opportunity for a later scandal and Honor preserves her integrity." she could have stalked him while he was asleep and emptied her 1911 Colt into him, and they still would be cheering her.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:19 am

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cthia wrote:Again, divulging her abilities would have cleared her from scandal later. CYA, cover your ass. And it would have put the ball in Burdette's court whether to accept the punishment for his crimes or take his chances with Honor. No opportunity for a later scandal and Honor preserves her integrity.

The difference between this discussion and the one about karma and Beowulf is that UH provides a definite answer for Beowulf, but it is very unlikely that there will ever be a future book that discusses any scandal over the trial by combat with Burdette. So unless RFC states something, one way or the other, there may never be closure.
One thing we do know is that Mueller accepted the Protector's judgment for his treason and did not attempt to cross swords with the Champion.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Vince   » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:59 am

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If you are saying that Honor should not have fought Burdette without disclosing her abilities:
cthia wrote:This can-o-worms isn't about me. It isn't even about Burdette. It is about the absolute truth of right and wrong in the eyes of the God you serve. Honor made the wrong decision when she chose not to at least isolate Nimitz. She should have divulged her special abilities to Burdette. Even if she wasn't legally required to do so under man's law. She should have come clean because it is the right thing to do in the eyes of God, and all that is pure and clean, under God's laws.

*Snip*

Failing to divulge the nature of all of her blessings under the circumstances is a slight against God. Failing to divulge her abilities when it made the contest NO CONTEST can be closely argued as murder. And that is an unfair situation to put God in. It is unfair and unrighteous to the notion of right and wrong. God being the embodiment of right and wrong. Not a single one of us doubt that the outcome would have been the same if Nimitz had been removed. Honor certainly had no doubts that she was going to kill Burdette. If Nimitz had been removed, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now. And Grayson won't be suffering a blow to their religious beliefs having the conversation later.

If Woman A chooses to get into an all out brawl with Woman B, but Woman A gets her ass beat to within an inch of her life, what do you think the judge will do to Woman B when it is revealed that Woman B is really a man dressed as a woman? Should Woman B have told the truth?

In a nutshell, the God that Honor knows expects the same righteousness. Honor had never let him down before, even at the expense of her own peril.

Why is it unfair and considered cheating when someone who has the ability to count cards cleans out a casino? God gave him the extremely rare savant like mathematical ability? The poor schmuck will be thrown out on his ears, perhaps shot in some cases, even though he was never in danger of killing anyone. Although he was making a killing.

A true Christian should never be accused of setting the bar too low. The eyes of the entire world is on him. He could turn many sinners away. As witnessed by the many posts I've encountered in religious threads massacring the actions of a few - or the one - isolated Christians. Thus incriminating Christians en masse. In this case, Honor's actions can cause a religious stir on Grayson, and that is the true travesty.

Honor's sin is against God, not against man. And this entire can of worms is about Honor's sin against God, therefore the Protector's sin against God, as well as his and any possible future ramifications rendered unto Grayson.

What is the sin? Glad you asked. It isn't so much lying by omission, though that's on the table. It isn't so much exhibiting morally bankrupt tendencies, though that's on the table. It isn't so much introducing infidel behavior as the People's Champion into a religious system of beliefs on a very religious planet. Though that is on the table. Oh no. Each of those transgressions arguably straddle the line of sins against man. I'm more concerned with Honor's sin against God, which is to introduce controversy into his plan. When she didn't need to do. Why would it have been wrong that she isolate Nimitz to remove all later doubt? Doubt of Christians in their God and Tester. Doubt of sinners and infidels galaxy wide for the righteousness of Grayson.

*Snip*

Burdette is portrayed as a loathsome character in the story. Certainly from the screen time we are allotted of him. Much of his troubles can mostly be attributed to that misogynistic miscreant of mayhem Mueller making him and everyone else his patsy, drawing on Burdette's intense and sincere concern for Grayson and his hatred for the handmaiden Harrington as Benjamin's poison. I don't mean to belittle Burdette's transgressions, but through it all, he is always portrayed as devoutly religious and genuinely concerned about the welfare of Grayson. Which brings me to RFC's post included by Vince.

There have been countless atrocities committed by "so called Christians" in the name of God. And many non believers can regurgitate examples on demand. But there are many examples where Christian beliefs saved millions of people. How many were saved from Pharoah along with their bloodline? How many Jews were saved during the Holocaust? How many Negroes during slavery and up to the present? How many native Americans?

How many innocent lives were lost in doing so? For the bigger picture?

I cried reading RFC's post . . .
Flag In Exile, Author's Note wrote:I completed this manuscript in October 1994. At that time, I'd structured the events which occur in Chapter Nineteen because I could think of no more loathsome, despicable, and cowardly act any individual or group of individuals could commit. It is my belief that the sentence "The end justifies the means"—that suppression, repression, and/or murder become somehow acceptable if committed in the name of a "cause" or belief which reduces individuals to expendable pawns—is the vilest of human poisons, and that terrorism, regardless of the terrorist's "cause," is the ultimate act of dehumanization. I did not expect that between the time I wrote this novel and the time it was published a United States citizen in Oklahoma City would demonstrate an even worse contempt for human life and the fundamental values of his own society or prove capable of an act even more despicable than my fictional villains. That some human beings are capable of such atrocities is an inescapable lesson of history. That we cannot allow those acts to go unpunished or extend to those who commit them any shred of respect, whatever the "cause" which motivated them, is a lesson the civilized human community must teach itself.
Do pardon by bold.

If I were to meet the man any time soon, I would hug him for this post. Deep down inside I feel he needs it. I share his point of view completely and I feel his pain. If it cuts him half ass deeply as it does me, it is debilitating. I know for a fact that David Weber believes in God, so this viewpoint doesn't surprise me at all. I would expect nothing less from a true Christian.

Remember what my teachers told me? My uncanny ability to become the character? I became the author when I read that post. Tears. Tears. Tears.

I feel the exact same way. BUT! Where does the line begin and the line end? Bear with me. I can't remember the particular documentary. But it had something to do with our military targeting some very bad individuals. Terrorists. Intel came down the pipeline that several very bad, MOST WANTED terrorists had plans to meet in this particular building in the midst of a civilian neighborhood in another country, of which I forget all of the details. If anyone can remember the details please come forth. The terrorists planned it that way, had a habit of doing so. Our military got the okay to bomb the building, even though there was a 25 % chance of an "unacceptable" number of casualties. I was watching little kids who were about to die. All on satellite. I'm still not over that attack. Why is that okay? The attack was in the name of a cause. Is the difference simply the formal license to kill by the military? A military with the good of an entire country as a cause, America? Why is it wrong for an individual to kill in the name of God, to save a planet? But the navy can murder in the name of its country.

The line is oftentimes blurred. Burdette may have been despicable onscreen. He may have been despicable in person. But he still could have been correct that Grayson is being led down the wrong path.

I suppose what I'm asking is this. When the military is guilty of the same thing, what then? Can not a true man of God be as altruistic as the military? Cannot one good man make a difference?

****** *

Vince wrote:When I asked you to don't lose track of the forest for the trees, and to extend your arguments to their ultimate conclusion, this is the end state if Honor (or Benjamin) had revealed her empathic abilities and Burdette is excused from facing Honor as Protector's Champion, after challenging her: Burdette gets away with murder,, and Honor is ostracized and shunned--at best. Burdette and the rest of the other extreme conservative Keys (Mueller, etc.) can now commit any crime, no matter how heinous, in furtherance of their goals--the ends justifying the means--and get away scot-free by sheltering behind their Key of Steadholdership, crying challenge to the Protector's Justice--the only way a Steadholder can be brought to justice--and not having to face Honor with the Sword of State in her hands in combat.

Is that your preferred outcome? Do you think that outcome is right, or just?


That isn't how I see it at all. Burdette was charged and sentenced. Challenging was his last chance to escape the wrath of the Protector and his Champion and to silence what he felt is the whore of Babylon. Had Honor divulged her specific abilities which made this particular duel grossly unfair and arguably tantamount to murder, it would have justly placed the burden of choice in Burdette's hands, to either withdraw his challenge and accept his original fate or take his chances with Supergirl. He would have had no choice but to continue, but the choice would have been his, made with all of the facts. More importantly, removing any later chance of a scandal of epic proportions brought to Grayson and preserving the integrity of the People's Champion and more importantly the righteousness of Grayson's religious beliefs. Does anyone think any human would challenge Supergirl?

Burdette's criminal history, personality or personal profile has no bearing on whether he is correct that the Protector is leading Grayson astray or whether he should lose his right to challenge. That would smack too much of a Black man having no rights because of his checkered past. Or simply because everyone knows him to be Black. All beside the point of whether he is in the wrong when cornered by Police.

This entire can-o-worms could have been anesthetized had Honor simply did the right thing and isolated Nimitz, removing all doubt. My concern is not for Burdette. It is for the People of Grayson's relationship with their God, as it should be. My concern is not for Honor, it is for the Grayson's relationship with their God, as it should be. It isn't even for Benjamin, but for the Grayson's relationship with their God, as it should be. It is about the salvation of Grayson.

I didn't miss the forest for the trees, nor the jungle for the forest.
I'm afraid that you are concentrating on the wrong points.

You are saying that both Honor and Nimitz (remember that he is a sentient being too) should have disclosed their empathic abilities (able to read the emotions and derive intent from them), physical abilities (both heavy world natives, with the genetic background to survive and thrive in that environment), the fact that both were not unarmed both physically (Nimitz's claws, Honor's skeletal reinforcement) and by training (Nimitz's upbringing before he met Honor as a scout, Honor's training on the Saganami Island RMN Academy unarmed combat team), prior to them:
The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 20 wrote:“On the contrary,” Mayhew said as the dining room door opened and two uniformed Security men stepped into the anteroom-like entry alcove. He glanced up casually as the newcomers walked towards Captain Fox and a second pair followed them into the dining room. “I expect they’ll be highly beneficial, though it may take some of us a while to—"
Fox frowned as the new arrivals approached him, then relaxed as one of them extended a dispatch case. He reached out to take it . . . and Nimitz suddenly catapulted from his stool with a snarl like tearing canvas.
Honor’s head whipped around as the treecat landed on the back of the Security man closest to her. The guard howled as the treecat’s true-feet sank centimeter-long claws bone-deep into his shoulders, and his howl became a shriek of raw, terrified agony as Nimitz’s uppermost limbs reached around his head and scimitar-clawed fingers buried themselves to the knuckles in his eyes.
Blood and fluids erupted down the shrieking guard’s cheeks, and his hands rose frantically to clutch at his assailant. But his sounds died in a horrible, whistling gurgle as the clawed hand-paws of the treecat’s middle limbs ripped his throat open to the spine.
The dead man crumpled like a felled tree, but the ‘cat was already somersaulting away from him. His rippling snarl rose even higher as he slammed into a second newcomer, all six sets of claws ripping and tearing, and Fox and his men stared at him in horror. They’d been surprised by the length of his sixtycentimeter body when he uncoiled from Honor’s shoulder, but he was narrow and supple as a ferret, and they hadn’t realized he massed over nine kilos of bone and hard muscle. It wasn’t really their fault—Honor had grown so accustomed to his weight over the years that it scarcely even inconvenienced her, and they hadn’t made sufficient allowance for how easily her own Sphinx-bred muscles let her carry him.
Yet whatever their reasoning, they’d dismissed him as a simple pet, without guessing how powerful and well-armed he actually was. Nor had they even suspected his intelligence, and the totally unexpected carnage stunned them. But they were trained bodyguards, responsible for their head of state’s safety, and their hands jerked to their weapons as the beast ran amok.
Captain Fox grabbed the Protector without ceremony, yanking him out of his chair by brute force and throwing him behind him as he went for his own sidearm. Lord Mayhew recoiled as the dead man’s blood splashed the tablecloth and spouted over him, but he, too, reacted with admirable speed. He grabbed both his sisters-in-law, shoved them under the table, and fell across them to protect them with his own body.
Honor saw it all only peripherally. She’d always known Nimitz could feel her emotions, but she’d never knowingly felt his.
This time she did—and as she also felt the emotions of the fresh “Security detachment” through him,
she exploded out of her chair. The heel of her hand slammed into the face of the newcomer closest to the Protector, and cartilage crunched horribly as she drove his nose up into his brain—just as his companion dropped the dispatch case, raised his other hand, and fired at pointblank range into Captain Fox’s chest.
The handgun made a whining noise and a sound like an axe sinking into a log, and the Security captain flew backward, his pistol less than half-drawn. His corpse knocked Mayhew to the carpet, and a corner of Honor’s mind cringed as she recognized the sound of an off-world sonic disrupter.
She reached out and caught the killer by the nape of the neck with one hand and reached past him to clamp her other over his gun before he could get a clear shot at Mayhew. She missed the gun but captured his wrist, and he dropped the weapon with a howl of anguish as her fingers squeezed and the hand on his neck yanked him off the floor. His eyes started to roll towards her in disbelief as he hurtled through the air, and then she slammed him back over the table. Dishes flew, crystal shattered, and his eyes bulged, shock become agony as the point of her elbow smashed down. It hit his solar plexus like a hammer, driven by all of her weight and strength, and she whipped away from him, leaving him to die as his lungs and heart forgot to function.
Nimitz’s second victim was down, screaming on the floor as he clutched at the remnants of his face, but there were more whining disrupter shots in the hall—mixed with the single, explosive crack of a regular firearm. A horde of fresh “Security” men charged through the door, all armed with disrupters, and Honor snatched a heavy metal tray from the table. It flew across the room, as accurate as Nimitz’s frisbee but far more deadly, and the leading intruder’s forehead erupted in blood. He went down, tripping the man behind him, tangling them all up briefly, and then the chaos became total as the Protector’s bodyguards suddenly realized who the enemy truly was.
Gunfire thundered across the dining room, bullets crisscrossing with the solid-sound fists of disrupter bolts. Bodies went down on both sides, and aside from the disrupters, there was no way Honor could tell who was friend and who was foe.
But Nimitz was unhampered by any confusion. The high-pitched snarl of his battle cry wailed in her ears as he hurled himself into the face of another assassin like a furry, six-limbed buzz saw. His victim went down shrieking, and the man beside him swung his weapon towards the treecat, but Honor flew across the carpet towards him. Her right leg snapped straight, her boot crunched into his shoulder, breaking it instantly, and a hammer blow crushed his larynx as she came down on top of him.
All the Mayhews’ guards were down now, but so were many of the assassins, and Honor and Nimitz were in among the others. She knew there were too many of them, yet she and Nimitz were all that was left, and they had to keep them bottled up in the entry alcove, away from the Protector and his family, as long as they could.
The killers had known she’d be here, but she was “only” a woman. They were totally unprepared for her size and strength—and training—or the mad whirl of violence that wasn’t a bit like it was on HD. Real martial arts aren’t like that. The first accurate strike to get through unblocked almost always ends in either death or disablement, and when Honor Harrington hit a man, that man went down.
More feet pounded down the hallway and fresh gunfire crackled and whined as Palace Security reacted to the violence, but the remaining assassins were between Honor and the reinforcements. She tucked and rolled, taking the legs out from under two more men, then vaulted to her feet and drove a back-kick squarely into an unguarded face. A disrupter bolt whizzed past her, and iron-hard knuckles crashed into the firer’s throat. Nimitz howled behind her as he took down another victim, and she smashed a man’s knee into a splintered, backward bow with a side-kick. He fired wildly as he went down, killing one of his own companions, and her boot pulped his gun hand as she turned on yet another. She snaked an arm around his neck, pivoted around her own center of balance, and bent explosively, and the crack of snapping vertebrae was like another gunshot as he flew away from her.
Shouts and screams and more shots echoed from the hallway, and the assassins turned on Honor with panicky fury while their rearmost ranks wheeled to confront the reinforcements. Someone thrust a disrupter frantically in her direction, but she took out his gun arm with one chopping hand, cupped the other behind his head, and jerked his face down to meet her driving kneecap. Bone crunched and splintered, blood soaked the knee of her trousers, and she twisted towards a fresh enemy as the real Security people broke through the doorway at last.
A sledgehammer smashed into her face. She heard Nimitz’s shriek of fury and anguish as it hurled her aside, twisting her in midair like a doll, but all she could feel was the pain the pain the pain, and then she crashed down on the side of her face and bounced limply onto her back.
The pain was gone. Only numbness and its memory remained, but her left eye was blind, and her right stared up helplessly as the man who’d shot her raised his disrupter with a snarl. She watched the weapon rise in dreadful slow motion, lining up for the pointblank final shot—and then her killer’s chest exploded.
He fell across her, drenching her in steaming blood, and she turned her head weakly, hovering on the edge of the blackness. The last thing she saw was Benjamin Mayhew and Captain Fox’s autopistol smoking in his hand.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

You would have had Honor and Nimitz, not engage the assassins in combat to protect the Protector, his wives and Lord Mayhew, but instead stand up and give a speech about how she and Nimitz could read the assassins emotions, that Honor was not "only" a woman, that Nimitz was not a pet, and that both were extremely dangerous in hand-to-hand combat and it would be fatal for them to attack Honor and Nimitz. You would have Honor and Nimitz stand aside and not defend the Protector, his wives and brother. To not defend themselves and to let the Protector, his wives, and Lord Mayhew as well as themselves to be killed.

Just as you would have Honor and Nimitz do the same with Burdette.

From your posts on the forum, I don't think you have assimilated the idea of Duty, Honor, Country as practiced by the military forces (both the RMN in the Honorverse and today's armed forces in the real world). Duty is ranked above Honor, which in turn is ranked above Country. It was Honor's DUTY to engage ‘The Brotherhood of Maccabeus’ assassination team and protect the Grayson Head of State, and his family in The Honor of the Queen, just as it was her DUTY to face Burdette in the duel in Flag in Exile.

It would have been a grave* DISHONOR (for the RMN, the Queen of Manticore, and most of all themselves**) for Honor and Nimitz to stand aside, fail to defend the Grayson Head of State and his family against the assassination attempt, and let both the Protector and his family as well as themselves be killed. It would have been an equally grave* DISHONOR (for the Protector, Honor's steaders, the law-abiding citizens of Grayson and most of all themselves**) for Honor and Nimitz to stand aside and not face Burdette in the duel in Council of Steadholders. All make it fair.

At some point, failing to oppose evil becomes evil. That point where failing to oppose evil becomes acquiescence, or even compliance to evil. You come to a point where you have to choose. And the choices you have are not always between black or white, good or bad. A lot of the times you are confronted with having to choose the least bad option.

Burdette failed to realize:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 21, Citizen Admiral Thomas Theisman wrote:The universe, he reflected, was not precisely overrunning with fairness, but it did seem that what went around came around. A point the Committee of Public Safety might want to bear in mind.
Boldface is my emphasis.

And I'm afraid that you don't realize:
Shadow of Freedom wrote:APRIL 1922 POST DIASPORA
“It’s an imperfect universe. Deal with it.”
—Admiral Michelle Henke
Boldface is my emphasis.

* No pun intended.
** To Thine Own Self Be True.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:52 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Can-o-worms! Can-o-worms! Can-o-worms!

Daryl wrote:The best human societies are founded on egalitarianism, with equality of opportunity and no discrimination.
That may not be optimal with a society made up of very different species with very different abilities and outlooks. There may well have to be safeguards to protect all sentient citizens, just as we now have laws to protect the slower witted from con merchants.
As an example, code duello where the challenged gets to choose the weapons would have to be different.

Spray paint that thought onto the canvass of a society exclusively founded on religion and righteousness, colored by the current discussion. Burdette's ignorance should have been protected by righteousness. He was still innocent until proven guilty. And the charge of guilt could have been tainted by Satan and his harlot. There is an ongoing war between God and Satan - good and evil. A true Christian should not await secular laws to catch-up with righteousness.

All I know is that honestly, I personally could not have kept the truth from him and lived with myself afterward, sleeping peacefully at night. There must be something intrinsically wrong there, or I wouldn't be too hard on myself, having survived a duel.

My notions, though they have a tendency to be controversial in nature are oftentimes like pulling teeth. Oftentimes you eventually come around. Eventually. :roll: :D :roll:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Daryl wrote:The best human societies are founded on egalitarianism, with equality of opportunity and no discrimination.
That may not be optimal with a society made up of very different species with very different abilities and outlooks. There may well have to be safeguards to protect all sentient citizens, just as we now have laws to protect the slower witted from con merchants.
As an example, code duello where the challenged gets to choose the weapons would have to be different.

cthia wrote:Spray paint that thought onto the canvass of a society exclusively founded on religion and righteousness, colored by the current discussion. Burdette's ignorance should have been protected by righteousness. He was still innocent until proven guilty. And the charge of guilt could have been tainted by Satan and his harlot. There is an ongoing war between God and Satan - good and evil. A true Christian should not await secular laws to catch-up with righteousness.

All I know is that honestly, I personally could not have kept the truth from him and lived with myself afterward, sleeping peacefully at night. There must be something intrinsically wrong there, or I wouldn't be too hard on myself, having survived a duel.

My notions, though they have a tendency to be controversial in nature are oftentimes like pulling teeth. Oftentimes you eventually come around. Eventually. :roll: :D :roll:

I very much doubt that the rules of the dueling code would be changed much: perhaps some limits on the choice of weapon, but the right to choose is already a safeguard to make a challenger think twice. However the code is more likely to change that a little noted, rarely used part of the Constitution; that is more likely to be simply removed.

Burdette may have the right to be considered "innocent, until proved guilty" in a judicial proceeding; but he both rejected a judicial proceeding and admitted to the Protector and his peers that all counts against him were true, except for knowingly causing the death of Reverend Hanks. Had the proof against him been needed, it was a direct confession to Church and the Protector of his armsman, who shot Reverend Hanks; something that was in no way "tainted by Satan and his harlot".

Whatever the truth about the strength of your feelings; that says nothing about the strength of the truth of your assertions.
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