Honorverse ramblings and musings

You truly do not understand faith. Perhaps I need to repost this. Don't gloss over it this time . . .

Remember the story of Samson and Delilah? The Walls of Jericho? David and Goliath? Daniel in the lion's den? God is on the side of the righteous, not the mightiest. Might doesn't make right in God's eye.

The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Be it mountains of evil or mountains of people. Strength comes from faith, not by secular magnitude. The bigger they are the harder they fall.

God only requires faith, as little as a mustard seed . . .

E = MC² - a little faith (Mass) goes a long way.

God created all the Mass of the world in six days. Then he said . . .

"Let there be light." So that we can C.

-cthia


"I can't see! I can't see!

"What's the matter?"

"I got my eyes closed."


O ye of little faith.


****** *

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

Look towards biblical textev . . .

My favorite example of faith has always been . . .

I just need to touch the hem of his garment.

She didn't feel she needed to actually touch Jesus, she felt that simply touching his garment would suffice. That is such powerfully powerful faith that it always makes my eyes water. Her faith was so strong it drained power from God. E = MC²

cthia wrote:I cannot believe all of you can't see the distinction in the mindsets of the two dueling systems. They are separately based on . . .

1. The skills of man. Secular attitudes.
2. The judgment of God. Nonsecular attitudes. The skills of man.

God does not inseparably factor into Manticoran dueling.

For instance . . .

tlb wrote:You are confusing this with a sporting contest where there are rules about fairness: such as forbidding steroids. Trial by Combat acts under the presumption that God will aid the righteous and strike down the other.

Regardless of what your Christian beliefs may be, that is a secular response, born of infidels.

On Grayson there are rules about fairness! Fairness is innate, inherent. Inseparable. Fairness is part and parcel to their beliefs. Their morals. Their scruples. Their values. It is indivisible as a part of their faith. At the heart of Grayson's faith is Grayson's God. There is nothing unfair about the tenets of God, in any faith! Interjecting unfairness upon the duels on Grayson is enough to bring the house down. To do so would spit on the very sanctity of what is just. To do so would embarrass the Graysons in the eyes of Tester. To do so would eliminate faith that God will judge. Abandoning fairness would signal a complete departure from faith and trust in God. At the very worst, it may cause many to question their religious beliefs. Proof positive of the importance and fear predicated on Star Trek's Prime Directive.

tlb wrote:My secular attitude about Trial by Combat is that it is a stupid way to resolve anything.

Regardless of how fair God may be, life is not fair and that is part of the Test. You ignore how unfair a Trial by Combat can be; it can only be redeemed if God actively intervenes to support the righteous. Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

I think you building a ramshackle addition onto the Church of Grayson's faith.

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

cthia wrote:Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

cthia wrote:Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

tlb wrote:Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.

Burdette could have the greatest amount of faith possible for a human to have and still lost. Assuming Burdette's understanding about God and how God acts in the world was accurate, God would ONLY have supported Burdette if he was fighting in concordance with God's Will. All the faith in the world would not prevent a man from being in error as to what His Will is. Faith, prayer and a willingness to be open to God's Will can guide a person to avoiding that sort of error.

Burdette's mistake with respect to the trial by combat was to equate his faith (as he understood it) with God's Will. Well, if not equate then simply assuming they are concordant. He was wrong and Honor let him discuss his error with God directly.

PeterZ wrote:

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

cthia wrote:Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

tlb wrote:Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.

Burdette could have the greatest amount of faith possible for a human to have and still lost. Assuming Burdette's understanding about God and how God acts in the world was accurate, God would ONLY have supported Burdette if he was fighting in concordance with God's Will. All the faith in the world would not prevent a man from being in error as to what His Will is. Faith, prayer and a willingness to be open to God's Will can guide a person to avoiding that sort of error.

Burdette's mistake with respect to the trial by combat was to equate his faith (as he understood it) with God's Will. Well, if not equate then simply assuming they are concordant. He was wrong and Honor let him discuss his error with God directly.

Burdette's mistake was also that he had "never" fought a duel where ones death was on line, unlike Honor.

Senior Chief wrote:

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

cthia wrote:Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

tlb wrote:Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.

Burdette could have the greatest amount of faith possible for a human to have and still lost. Assuming Burdette's understanding about God and how God acts in the world was accurate, God would ONLY have supported Burdette if he was fighting in concordance with God's Will. All the faith in the world would not prevent a man from being in error as to what His Will is. Faith, prayer and a willingness to be open to God's Will can guide a person to avoiding that sort of error.

Burdette's mistake with respect to the trial by combat was to equate his faith (as he understood it) with God's Will. Well, if not equate then simply assuming they are concordant. He was wrong and Honor let him discuss his error with God directly.

Burdette's mistake was also that he had "never" fought a duel where ones death was on line, unlike Honor.[/quote]

Burdette's error was to assume that what he wanted was the actual will of God.

A lot of fools do this.

cthia wrote:On Grayson there are rules about fairness! Fairness is innate, inherent. Inseparable. Fairness is part and parcel to their beliefs. Their morals. Their scruples. Their values. It is indivisible as a part of their faith. At the heart of Grayson's faith is Grayson's God. There is nothing unfair about the tenets of God, in any faith! Interjecting unfairness upon the duels on Grayson is enough to bring the house down. To do so would spit on the very sanctity of what is just. To do so would embarrass the Graysons in the eyes of Tester. To do so would eliminate faith that God will judge. Abandoning fairness would signal a complete departure from faith and trust in God. At the very worst, it may cause many to question their religious beliefs. Proof positive of the importance and fear predicated on Star Trek's Prime Directive.

A ruler classically chooses their very best warrior to be their champion. The intent is to discourage excessive numbers of challenges and to win the ones that are brought. I have a hard time believing that Grayson would be so committed to fairness in trial by combat as to require (or at least to have a public norm for) the Protector to have a champion that is evenly matched with challengers.

And for all these claims of fairness Burdette certainly didn't expect this to be a fair fight. He expected his long training and practice with the sword to let him cut down the novice, Honor, should she be foolish enough to not yield (and thereby grant him victory)


Why is it such an outrage that Honor did not specifically stop to disclose her enhanced musculature and quicker than average reactions[1] but it wasn't an outrage that a master of the sword challenged a novice to a duel to the death!!
Where are these rules enforcing fairness here? If a fair trial was mandatory why isn't Benjamin allowed/required to pick a champion matching the skill and training (or lack thereof) of each challenger?

Or is the contest allowed to be as unfair as a participant likes as long as they announce any and all perceived advantages before using them to win? In that case why isn't that mutual announcement of advantages a formal part of Grayson challenges?

Even the remaining conservative steadholders, who picked on almost anything Honor did in their continued attempts to hold tightly to Grayson's historic practices do not appear to have claimed that she behaved incorrectly, duplicitously, or unrighteously in her duel with Burdette. Given that they were seizing on anything they could to discredit her it seems inconceivable to me that, if her actions were as antithetical to Grayson mores as you say, they wouldn't have made that a major point of their campaign to discredit her!

It looks, to me, like Grayson practices don't match what you feel they would have to be.

[1] She couldn't have disclosed her telempathic ability as she didn't yet realize that she had that - outside of the link to Nimitz. It would be years before she realized that she was becoming able to read human emotions directly

tlb wrote:You are confusing this with a sporting contest where there are rules about fairness: such as forbidding steroids. Trial by Combat acts under the presumption that God will aid the righteous and strike down the other.

cthia wrote:Regardless of what your Christian beliefs may be, that is a secular response, born of infidels.

tlb wrote:Consider if the Protector's Champion had been a 90 year old man, who had won the position when young. Forced to fight Burdette, where is your fairness in this case?

cthia wrote: Life isn't fair. Nor are the people we meet in our everyday walks of life righteous, but God is there to take up the slack, if we would only have faith. If we are not faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, then what is the need for faith? If a 30-yr-old man is the Protector's Champion facing a 90-yr-old man then where is the need for the Protector's Champion to have faith? Our faith truly needs to be strong daily. It needs to be unshakable, at least the size of a mustard seed when we are up against insurmountable odds. I don't need my God to help me crush an egg.

I have faith in that 90-yr-old man. And surely if he has even the smallest amount of faith in God, simply the size of a mustard seed, he shall prevail.

tlb wrote:Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.

PeterZ wrote: Burdette could have the greatest amount of faith possible for a human to have and still lost. Assuming Burdette's understanding about God and how God acts in the world was accurate, God would ONLY have supported Burdette if he was fighting in concordance with God's Will. All the faith in the world would not prevent a man from being in error as to what His Will is. Faith, prayer and a willingness to be open to God's Will can guide a person to avoiding that sort of error.

Burdette's mistake with respect to the trial by combat was to equate his faith (as he understood it) with God's Will. Well, if not equate then simply assuming they are concordant. He was wrong and Honor let him discuss his error with God directly.

I fail to see how an expectation that a Trial by Combat is a trial of faith and will, where it is hoped and prayed that God would reveal the truth by weighing both sides and siding with the righteous in their cause could in any way be considered secular; praying that God will reveal the truth is by definition non-secular.

The truly secular view of Trial by Combat is that a situation has occurred where society requires one side in a dispute to win and the other to lose; in the absence of a way to know which is better for society, then a decision that is at best arbitrary is as good as any other.

The non-secular view is that God knows the truth of the faiths of the combatants in both quantity and quality and can decide who is more righteous as PeterZ writes. You are willing to say that the faith of a 90 year old Champion would trump the faith, expertise and prowess of Burdette, but that can only be true if God puts them both on opposing ends of the scale to determine where Justice lies.

PS to Jonathan_S: In allowing that a 90 year old (without prolong) could have been the Champion and so forced to fight Burdette, as well as agreeing that life is unfair and part of the test, he has abandoned the argument that Grayson's faith required everything to be fair.
Now the argument is that true faith can overcome the obstacles imposed by unfairness; but that requires him to explain how Burdette, who has an abundance of faith, could lose to a 90 year Champion.

PPS: The Grayson method of choosing the Champion completely ignores any ability with a sword.

Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

tlb wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

Very well stated.