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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:59 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
ywing14 wrote:I think he’d still be considered an ex slave.



It's a matter of what's on his mind. I would guess a lot of others in his situation had issues. The children of Holocaust survivors are often haunted by things that happened before they were born.

A lot of it has to do with growing up with parents who actually were there. Same for Paulo. His parents were pleasure slaves. And, even worse than some things on Earth that are historical, he has genes that mark him.

And he has the bar code on his tongue. THAT came through. He is marked, forever. And if captured by MAlign would be considered a slave.

Things are not always simple.
cthia wrote:I agree. You both have valid points.

We know he was less than 9-yrs-old or he would have had to put out too. That is listed as the end of the age of innocence for sexslaves. His parents were sexslaves, so did Paulo ever get to witness what being a sexslave is? He certainly wasn't sheltered from it, in light of his ruminations and hang-ups which hindered his relationship with Helen. Although he may not have reached the end of his innocence doesn't mean he wasn't taken advantage of by some pervert behind closed doors, or was at least "sexually harassed" while his parents were "entertaining." At any rate, he's genetically a pleasure slave even if he was never "harvested."

There's a possibility he was born after his parents were long free.


saber964 wrote:No, his mother was killed in the attack that got him and his father rescued.

I caught that logic error myself and edited it before you posted, saber. Thanks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ywing14   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:14 pm

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I agree with most of what ldwechsler stated. I just disagreed with the small point of whether or not he was a slave because I interpreted the textev to indicate he was alive when he was freed by Manticore. I think the rest of what ldwechsler stated is accurate about Paulo. I can't image what it would be like to look in the mirror and know you were more or less bred to look a certain way for people's use as a sex toy. Additionally, I'm sure lots of people viewed him the same way Helen did initially which was to think he must be incredibly vain to spend all that money on Biosculpt to look handsome.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:10 pm

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In hindsight, I realize that a certain thread may have been a bit too cerebral for the focus of this forum, but I'm experiencing a bit of déjà vu.

I'm beginning to think that nations which grow to a certain size become too difficult to politically manage and thus become too unstable. There's simply too many wheels turning and cogs grinding to keep corruption out of the huge coffers.

Expanding your political area of influence butts its head against new politics, i.e., Silesia. Which may change, in unforeseen ways, the chemistry of your own politics (foreign policy readily comes to mind), thus making it unstable.

Expansionism stretches the political rubber band until it snaps. Is the same fate in Manticore's or the Andermani's future? Does Silesia represent a hidden danger? Could there be a tipping point for Manticore as well? I wonder if one form of government is more prone to implosion, having reached the ideal gravity of critical mass?

Grayson, I would think, is immune, since they are never likely to grow a set of expanding balls. No way they'd want to assimilate a bunch of infidels.

At any rate, the League and Haven both were afflicted by the same disease. I think due to the size of which they grew.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:12 pm

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can't remember the exact quote or who it is attributed to but basically it says "all empires fall".

dangerous as it is to make real world examples the british empire is a key example. it spanned across the globe and lasted longer then almost all of those that had come before. but focus on home affairs and bad management of the distant provinces meant that when the world wars hit the strain was just too much for it.

history has shown us again and again this is true. both Manticore and the Andermani will have this issue. as will Haven though haven might be put off for a while as it has essentially just had its dark age and is still working on rebuilding their "empire".

to cross universe things like the Mat-trans from Dahk universe might hold it together longer as the distant sectors are closer. so the time/distance issue which can be a major problem in trying to run distant corners of your empire from a central location is reduced. QE3 has tried to head this off by essentially making Silesa and the Quadrant autonomous with an imperial govener to a make sure they stay within the general framework but this will only buy time.

it may be several centuries, and prolong may affect things somewhat, before they do but eventually they will go.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:05 pm

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China and Egypt changed in government and details of borders over millennia, but were pretty much still China and Egypt the whole time. So the argument that a nation cannot sustain itself for millennia is not as solid as you might think.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:47 pm

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kzt wrote:China and Egypt changed in government and details of borders over millennia, but were pretty much still China and Egypt the whole time. So the argument that a nation cannot sustain itself for millennia is not as solid as you might think.



That gets trickier. The two nations had many governments. Egypt in particular was occupied one way or another for millennia.

China had changes but the 'mandarin' system kept a lot similar. Note also that it was a victim of conquest and imperialism at different times.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:17 pm

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Hi ldwechsler,

Excellent points as usual.

I think the situations are more unlike than like since Manticore is not interested in expanding its responsibilities and commitments further, that is letting its half of Silesia go when they're ready, possibly to be incorporated into the Andermanni as their borders fell pinched by elsewhere by the Talbot Sector, which after a few decades to a century or so, may seek more of a commonwealth status; associated with Manticore, but more independent.

It was the encroaching 'little England' attitude on the part of too many British politicians and Whitehall bureaucrats, many of them Rhodes scholars quite opposed to his vision of the empire and determined to transform or destroy it.

England having bankrupted itself in World War One, then failing to properly invest after the war was unable to financially support the second world war, and the US Congress made sure Lend-Lease compelled the British to sell off remaining assets at fire house prices, putting the empire at the mercy of ignorant or prejudiced American policy makers from FDR on down, who for over 20 years had little interest in understanding its value or preserving it.

Indeed they forced the European empires to plague their colonies by granting 'independence' long before any sane observer would agree they were ready, to prevent soviet liberation wars, but the result despite hundreds of billion$ in foreign aid since has not improved most African etc lives much in almost 70 years.

Few empires have had such friends.

Ironically, it appears the new Chinese empire may change some of that by investing more in local infrastructure and education, though it could take another generation or two to bring Africa to to the level of the Asian 'tigers'...

Despite the cost of the second war with Haven and then the League, its brevity (3 years and about 9 monthes) compared to the decade plus of the first war means far more can be devoted to rebuilding its orbital industry sooner, probably with more foreign investors, while the wormhole traffic continues to grow and the MMM has even larger markets to pay for it; rather unique eternal assets not shared by England, Egypt, or China.

Now RFC has apparently implied someplace a while back that eventually honorverse warships at least will be able to generate their own wormholes, reducing the importance of Manticore's junction etc, but given how many centuries starships last, it may be a millennia or two [given the energy requirements etc] before commerce could ignore it.

Given how plugged into the rest of the honorverse Manticore and Haven are [or will be again in Haven's case], and the effect of the streak drive on transit times (could we see fast freighters and passenger liners with streak drives in 20 years?) means the communications loop will soon shrink by at least 50%, so messages to Talbot may have answers in 3 weeks, and even less as research continues over the decades and centuries.

For decades Manticore has been the true communications and financial heart of the human star civilization, since it hears everything far faster than earth.

The fact the league newsies have largely ignored Manticore and its WHJ, rather than making it their chief news conduit with large permanent staffs, is just one more example of solly folly.

But given the reality of how generous Honor and the GA's terms were, compared the lies of E&I's shills, a far bigger ex-league newsie presence in Manticore and the SEM is quite predictable.

I expect them and the empire's own newsies to seek out and boldly discover all the empire's mistakes and judgement errors, that will largely keep both Haven and Manticore on the more honest and correct path, thanks to their legal protections.

Unless RFC gets bored with Manticore and Haven as the good guys, we should expect them to continue to clobber the MAlign.

Until next time, Manticore...


[quote="ldwechsler"][quote="kzt"]China and Egypt changed in government and details of borders over millennia, but were pretty much still China and Egypt the whole time. So the argument that a nation cannot sustain itself for millennia is not as solid as you might think.[/quote]


That gets trickier. The two nations had many governments. Egypt in particular was occupied one way or another for millennia.

China had changes but the 'mandarin' system kept a lot similar. Note also that it was a victim of conquest and imperialism at different times.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:44 am

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The dangers of the MA capturing a Memory Singer

One thing I feared would materialize out of the MA capturing a Teeecat and managing to keep it alive for its search for the holy grail of telempathy, would be to find ways to interfere with their ability to communicate, by somehow affecting the channels. Stumbled upon accidentally as a byproduct of their research. Especially if the Treecat specimen captured is a Memory Singer.

Another concern would be whether or not the MA can develop assassinites that affect the 'Cats. Can you imagine a 'Cat suddenly going catatonic (pun intended) then ballistic? What a brutal turn of events - both two-legs and 'Cats alike suddenly having to kill Treecats. The MA would literally turn them into their very own assassins. Especially if that Demon Murphy designed the nanite so it doesn't need tailoring to a specific physiology, courtesy of some convenient aspect of Treecat genetics. Which opens up many questions. E.g., what if one pair of a bonded cat/cat pair fall under the influence of the nanites? Would it represent a severing of the bond and cause the other 'Cat to suicide even before death? Would it cause the 'Cat to attack its bonded mate?


As I stated eons ago, Treecats just may find the Malign mindglows very tasty.

On that note, racism is taught and learned. People are not born with it. The Malign has to teach its subjects to be "racist" against the human race. Two-legs -- or rather, socializing with two-legs -- has taught the 'Cats racism against the unholy, wholly uplifted genies of the MA. Certainly, the Treecats have personal reasons to hate the MA, but that reason is due to the cause and effect of war. It wasn't personal for the Malign.

If they ever meet, Treecats may find that they understand the Malign's will to survive as they see fit, and the 'Cats may feel they understand their scorn and battle with the galaxy much better.

After all, Treecats protected their secret for ages before they decided to come out into the open. What if humans didn't accept them? Then they'd probably be at war for their differences, just as the MA are. If the MA knows sign language, they just may find common ground. 'Course, why would anyone of the MA know sign language, culling deafness as they would.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ywing14   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:36 pm

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Posts: 259
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lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

Excellent points as usual.

I think the situations are more unlike than like since Manticore is not interested in expanding its responsibilities and commitments further, that is letting its half of Silesia go when they're ready, possibly to be incorporated into the Andermanni as their borders fell pinched by elsewhere by the Talbot Sector, which after a few decades to a century or so, may seek more of a commonwealth status; associated with Manticore, but more independent.

It was the encroaching 'little England' attitude on the part of too many British politicians and Whitehall bureaucrats, many of them Rhodes scholars quite opposed to his vision of the empire and determined to transform or destroy it.

England having bankrupted itself in World War One, then failing to properly invest after the war was unable to financially support the second world war, and the US Congress made sure Lend-Lease compelled the British to sell off remaining assets at fire house prices, putting the empire at the mercy of ignorant or prejudiced American policy makers from FDR on down, who for over 20 years had little interest in understanding its value or preserving it.

Indeed they forced the European empires to plague their colonies by granting 'independence' long before any sane observer would agree they were ready, to prevent soviet liberation wars, but the result despite hundreds of billion$ in foreign aid since has not improved most African etc lives much in almost 70 years.

Few empires have had such friends.

Ironically, it appears the new Chinese empire may change some of that by investing more in local infrastructure and education, though it could take another generation or two to bring Africa to to the level of the Asian 'tigers'...

Despite the cost of the second war with Haven and then the League, its brevity (3 years and about 9 monthes) compared to the decade plus of the first war means far more can be devoted to rebuilding its orbital industry sooner, probably with more foreign investors, while the wormhole traffic continues to grow and the MMM has even larger markets to pay for it; rather unique eternal assets not shared by England, Egypt, or China.

Now RFC has apparently implied someplace a while back that eventually honorverse warships at least will be able to generate their own wormholes, reducing the importance of Manticore's junction etc, but given how many centuries starships last, it may be a millennia or two [given the energy requirements etc] before commerce could ignore it.

Given how plugged into the rest of the honorverse Manticore and Haven are [or will be again in Haven's case], and the effect of the streak drive on transit times (could we see fast freighters and passenger liners with streak drives in 20 years?) means the communications loop will soon shrink by at least 50%, so messages to Talbot may have answers in 3 weeks, and even less as research continues over the decades and centuries.

For decades Manticore has been the true communications and financial heart of the human star civilization, since it hears everything far faster than earth.

The fact the league newsies have largely ignored Manticore and its WHJ, rather than making it their chief news conduit with large permanent staffs, is just one more example of solly folly.

But given the reality of how generous Honor and the GA's terms were, compared the lies of E&I's shills, a far bigger ex-league newsie presence in Manticore and the SEM is quite predictable.

I expect them and the empire's own newsies to seek out and boldly discover all the empire's mistakes and judgement errors, that will largely keep both Haven and Manticore on the more honest and correct path, thanks to their legal protections.

Unless RFC gets bored with Manticore and Haven as the good guys, we should expect them to continue to clobber the MAlign.

Until next time, Manticore...


kzt wrote:China and Egypt changed in government and details of borders over millennia, but were pretty much still China and Egypt the whole time. So the argument that a nation cannot sustain itself for millennia is not as solid as you might think.



That gets trickier. The two nations had many governments. Egypt in particular was occupied one way or another for millennia.

China had changes but the 'mandarin' system kept a lot similar. Note also that it was a victim of conquest and imperialism at different times.


Given what it is costing African nations to finance those projects I'm not sure how much I agree with you. Many of the nations are taking out massive loans with the Chinese they can't hope to pay back. Additionally, they're shipping in mostly Chinese workers to support the projects so the locals aren't even earning any money.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:23 pm

cthia
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Let's say at some point in the exciting future, the wormhole leading to Darius is discovered. A few questions come to mind.

Has Darius fortified the wormholes with mines? Or will they rely solely on it being hidden — leaving the GA with a window of opportunity and good fortune like when the RHN failed to fortify Trevor's Star? Will they be aware of the dynamics of attacking and defending a wormhole, never having done either? Would their stealth technology make it all the more difficult for enemies to successfully overpower their wormhole defense?

For the million dollar question... "Which member of the GA would ultimately control the wormhole once it's all said and done — and especially if it turns out to potentially be another lucrative network of junctions?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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