Honorverse ramblings and musings

Weird Harold wrote:

Theemile wrote:Forts are not Immobile, they just have exceedingly poor tactical speed, and no strategic maneuverabily.

In practical terms, they are "immobile." Wherever a fort is when battle is joined, is where it will be found when the battle is over -- plus or minus a few thousand kilometers.

They're not that bad. Forts can still push ~100-150g, making their mobility equal to spider ships in tactical terms.

It isn't enough to chase down real ships or run away, but that isn't the purpose of a space fort. They're meant to insert themselves between the planet they're protecting and any attackers.

cthia wrote:
I simply thought that all of the new and emerging technology has possibly given the utility of forts a new lease on life if seeded throughout the system with long-legged missiles that alleviate its previous liability of limited movement. Since it can target all existing enemies before they can enter their own missile envelope. Less the MAlign of course.

No, since system defense pods can sit for months in space without support, it is easiest just to dump a couple clouds of pods, add Mycroft or Morierty satellites (depending on your tech levels), and a wing or 2 of LACS and you have a serious defense system. Building forts takes years (even Manticore took 3+ years to build a "small" 12 Mton fort) and is a serious cost outlay in a system, with no strategic capability. The other systems can be quickly deployed, moved and updated, and only cost a fraction of the cost of the fort installation.

cthia wrote:I simply thought that all of the new and emerging technology has possibly given the utility of forts a new lease on life if seeded throughout the system with long-legged missiles that alleviate its previous liability of limited movement.

As long as you're not thinking of seeding a system with 12 MT behemoths that take three years to build and can't out-run a snail, you might be on to something.

Everything a fort used to do can be done by ships and command modules that are smaller, cheaper, and can be seeded in far larger numbers than a traditional fort. All that new and emerging technology means that "forts" don't need the mass or manpower of traditional forts.

The modern RMN forts are modular and are manufacture in a factory in bulk and the put into a freighter for assembly. It was stated or has been strongly implied by David or a Bu9 member that the various modules can be assembled in different ways to produce different scale forts.

You can also disassemble them and move them somewhere else.

It's also been stated that, ton for ton, forts will kick the ass of starships. They are much tougher and have more firepower for their size. How that works with modular I don't know, but it is so written.

The reason you use forts instead of a fleet is that you want to protect a given point no matter what. You are making the decision that no matter what else might be going on in the universe or that system you want that limited piece of space protected. Forts don't get told that they are needed for an attack in another system, they are where you put them when they are needed.

There are other advantages, like this being clearly defensive and more cost effective if you have no plan to conduct offensive operations.

kzt wrote:The modern RMN forts are modular and are manufacture in a factory in bulk and the put into a freighter for assembly. It was stated or has been strongly implied by David or a Bu9 member that the various modules can be assembled in different ways to produce different scale forts.

You can also disassemble them and move them somewhere else.

It's also been stated that, ton for ton, forts will kick the ass of starships. They are much tougher and have more firepower for their size. How that works with modular I don't know, but it is so written.

The reason you use forts instead of a fleet is that you want to protect a given point no matter what. You are making the decision that no matter what else might be going on in the universe or that system you want that limited piece of space protected. Forts don't get told that they are needed for an attack in another system, they are where you put them when they are needed.

There are other advantages, like this being clearly defensive and more cost effective if you have no plan to conduct offensive operations.

Plus, forts free up the rest of your fleet for other operations, since the forts will be covering a given point instead of units of your fleet.

Hi MunroBurton,

The problem for such a silly scenario being that it'd take the junction forts almost a day at 100 G's to accelerate to .287 C and another 'almost a day' to reach Manticore orbit; not a useful solution given what a single destroyer could do to an inhabited planet in an hour, let alone 15 minutes, etc.

Of course, having reached .287 C, they could simply coast and get there in just another 12 hours!

So I doubt RFC has given much time to such a plan.

Still, he might have or perhaps Bu9 considered it very briefly.

L

munroburton wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:quote="Theemile"Forts are not Immobile, they just have exceedingly poor tactical speed, and no strategic maneuverabily. quote

In practical terms, they are "immobile." Wherever a fort is when battle is joined, is where it will be found when the battle is over -- plus or minus a few thousand kilometers.

They're not that bad. Forts can still push ~100-150g, making their mobility equal to spider ships in tactical terms.

It isn't enough to chase down real ships or run away, but that isn't the purpose of a space fort. They're meant to insert themselves between the planet they're protecting and any attackers.

Vince wrote:

kzt wrote:The modern RMN forts are modular and are manufacture in a factory in bulk and the put into a freighter for assembly. It was stated or has been strongly implied by David or a Bu9 member that the various modules can be assembled in different ways to produce different scale forts.

You can also disassemble them and move them somewhere else.

It's also been stated that, ton for ton, forts will kick the ass of starships. They are much tougher and have more firepower for their size. How that works with modular I don't know, but it is so written.

The reason you use forts instead of a fleet is that you want to protect a given point no matter what. You are making the decision that no matter what else might be going on in the universe or that system you want that limited piece of space protected. Forts don't get told that they are needed for an attack in another system, they are where you put them when they are needed.

There are other advantages, like this being clearly defensive and more cost effective if you have no plan to conduct offensive operations.

Plus, forts free up the rest of your fleet for other operations, since the forts will be covering a given point instead of units of your fleet.

Ok, I understand. I think.

It's just that these posts makes me think that the Admiralty should indeed look into this potentially new utility of forts, since the point in space that they can be dedicated to covering now is the whole of space -- with the advent of the long-legged reach of Apollo.

Plus! It would afford Home Fleet a bit more leeway -- in a pinch of an emergency. And in general.

E.g...
During the BoM when Home Fleet had to choose between defending Sphinx or Manticore.* Forts deployed throughout Sphinxian space and Manticoran space would serve the purpose of holding down the fort—with forts—until the cavalry redeploys. No?

I understand the consideration of cost, but forts can be deployed in this capacity in time of peace -- one platform at a time.

*I always wondered what Home Fleet would have done if Tourville had made a beeline directly for Sphinx as the first order of business.

Do forgive my intransigence on this issue if indeed it is. I assure, it is not my intent.

lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

The problem for such a silly scenario being that it'd take the junction forts almost a day at 100 G's to accelerate to .287 C and another 'almost a day' to reach Manticore orbit; not a useful solution given what a single destroyer could do to an inhabited planet in an hour, let alone 15 minutes, etc.

Of course, having reached .287 C, they could simply coast and get there in just another 12 hours!

So I doubt RFC has given much time to such a plan.

Still, he might have or perhaps Bu9 considered it very briefly.

L

Weird Harold wrote:In practical terms, they are "immobile." Wherever a fort is when battle is joined, is where it will be found when the battle is over -- plus or minus a few thousand kilometers.

munroburton wrote:They're not that bad. Forts can still push ~100-150g, making their mobility equal to spider ships in tactical terms.

It isn't enough to chase down real ships or run away, but that isn't the purpose of a space fort. They're meant to insert themselves between the planet they're protecting and any attackers.

Nowhere did I claim that 100g would make Junction forts capable of reaching the in-system planets to make a difference. There's a difference between "immobile" as WeirdHarold stated and 100g of accel.

They need some movement capability. Think about it - with two dozen orbiting forts distributed equally around a planet, up to a quarter of them would be blocked by their own planet whenever an attacker came by. So they may need to move themselves to the other side of the planet - and the ones already there need to hold position(ie, prevent their normal parking orbits from carrying them behind the planet, from the perspective of the attackers). 100g is good enough for this sort of maneuvering.

Also, Junction forts currently defend the Junction as if it were a planet, due to the lack of termini in enemy hands. It's true that they couldn't rush to assist Manticore/Sphinx/Gryphon in a hurry - but that is why each of those planets have their own forts.

This is probably inconsequential and/or I may have missed its significance. At any rate, this enquiring mind wants to know.

Why did the MAlign wire Rajampet $3.6B if they knew they were going to kill him?

It isn't like he would need the money to buy the farm. LOL

Drunken_Wiki wrote:He was a corrupt man, taking bribes from the Mesan Alignment to help them orchestrate the conflict between the League and the Star Empire of Manticore. In addition, his personality was characterized by belligerence and a fierce resentment of Manticore (for its wealth and disinclination to kowtow to the League's whims). However, shortly after he had received his pay of 3.6 billion credits, a phone call at his home triggered Mesan mind control nanites to force him into killing himself with his own pulser. (HH13)

munroburton wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

The problem for such a silly scenario being that it'd take the junction forts almost a day at 100 G's to accelerate to .287 C and another 'almost a day' to reach Manticore orbit; not a useful solution given what a single destroyer could do to an inhabited planet in an hour, let alone 15 minutes, etc.

Of course, having reached .287 C, they could simply coast and get there in just another 12 hours!

So I doubt RFC has given much time to such a plan.

Still, he might have or perhaps Bu9 considered it very briefly.

L

Nowhere did I claim that 100g would make Junction forts capable of reaching the in-system planets to make a difference. There's a difference between "immobile" as WeirdHarold stated and 100g of accel.

They need some movement capability. Think about it - with two dozen orbiting forts distributed equally around a planet, up to a quarter of them would be blocked by their own planet whenever an attacker came by. So they may need to move themselves to the other side of the planet - and the ones already there need to hold position(ie, prevent their normal parking orbits from carrying them behind the planet, from the perspective of the attackers). 100g is good enough for this sort of maneuvering.

Also, Junction forts currently defend the Junction as if it were a planet, due to the lack of termini in enemy hands. It's true that they couldn't rush to assist Manticore/Sphinx/Gryphon in a hurry - but that is why each of those planets have their own forts.

It was actually I who mentioned it. I'm not saying it would have made a difference in the original battle. But, in a senario where a RHN fleet did win the battle of Manticore, then fought through the inner fortresses, you cannot tell me that the junction fortress commander would not counterattack, and retake the inner planets.

It is the plan of complete last resort. But no combat commander would just allow it to happen when he still had that much firepower.