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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:27 pm

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cthia wrote:
Vince wrote:They do have their own navy. And sod does Gryphon.

It's called the Royal Manticoran Navy.

Fat good it's going to do them parked and deployed around Manticore orbit when the amount of tonnage comes acallin' like what Tourville brought along and they decide to make a beeline straight for Sphinx. Which, as I said before, seems it would be too much distraction for Honor, family being there.

Which the SLN could still do. Hyper in, go straight for and kill Sphinx and make it hurt, being the bullies they are.



Home Fleet is broken into 2 segments - Green and Red. Green for Manticore A and Red for Manticore B. Historically, a Senior Admiral (Admiral of the Green) served in the Green fleet where as a junior admiral (Admiral of the Red) served in the Red fleet. But that was in the past, when the RMN was very small.

So while we never asked David, there should have been a small Homefleet segment guarding Gryphon and the belters during BoMa.

During Raging Justice, Honor played the odds and left Home Fleet's cruisers (including a schlode of BC(p)s) to do a repeat of Terekhov's defense of Spindle, with the Havenite and Grayson fleets as the hyperspace beaters in case Filareta decided to go for Gryphon first.

Also, all planets have their own defenses, including clouds of wedge buoys for "Shielding" and forts with KHII fire control and clouds of Missile pods. Not to mention thousands of LACS.

In the lead up to BoMa in AAC, DeOrville has a mental discussion about basing the fleet at Manticore or Sphinx, and the advantages of the resonance zone for Sphinxian defense. The Fleet (or portions of it) are not always at Manticore, but move from one base to another as per the perceived needs of the moment. Durning BoMa, Sphinx was inside the resonance zone and protected from a quick hyper jump attack, so the fleet was posted at Manticore, but still able to intercept an attacker short of Sphinx. But DeOrville debated his options.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Vince   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:53 pm

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cthia wrote:
SoV wrote:Barregos nodded again. Admiral Alexander Chapman was the Erewhon Space Navy’s senior uniformed officer, and Glenn Horton was his and Roszak’s local interface with the Erewhonese yards building the Maya Sector Defense Force. Of course, the MSDF didn’t officially exist, but that was perfectly all right with Orville Barregos, since the ships in it didn’t officially exist yet, either.

And, he reminded himself, it won’t be so very long before the Maya Sector Defense Force becomes the Mayan Navy. And won’t that frost some chops in Old Chicago?
cthia wrote:This brings me right back to my failing to understand why Sphinx doesn't have its own navy. They are the other twin in the Manticore Binary System, the richest system in the galaxy. They should be able to afford their own navy.
Vince wrote:They do have their own navy. And so does Gryphon.

It's called the Royal Manticoran Navy.

Fat good it's going to do them parked and deployed around Manticore orbit when the amount of tonnage comes acallin' like what Tourville brought along and they decide to make a beeline straight for Sphinx. Which, as I said before, seems it would be too much distraction for Honor, family being there.

Which the SLN could still do. Hyper in, go straight for and kill Sphinx and make it hurt, being the bullies they are.

Except that when Tourville actually came acallin', Home Fleet was in orbit around Sphinx, went out to meet him and died to defend the planet and the system.

And when the SLN came acallin', Grand Fleet (RMN, GSN and RHN) was deployed to cover Sphinx. And we saw how that worked out for the SLN.

By now, I expect Mycroft has been deployed throughout Manticore A, at least, with Manticore B's Mycroft deployment closely following Manticore A's Mycroft deployment.

And even back when Tourville came acallin', Sphinx had its own defenses, completely separate from Home Fleet in orbit around it:
At All Costs, Chapter 66 wrote:"Any change in his heading, Judson?" Admiral Kuzak asked.
"No, Ma'am. He's maintaining exactly the same heading and acceleration," Commander Latrell replied.
"What the hell does he think he's doing, Ma'am?" Captain Smithson asked quietly, and Kuzak shrugged in irritation.
"Damned if I know," she acknowledged frankly. "Maybe he just figures he's still got the firepower to take us. After all, he's still got a hundred and eighteen wallers, and we've only got fifty-five, even with Duchess Harrington's orphans."
"But he's had the crap hammered out of him, Ma'am," Smithson objected. "The recon platforms indicate he's got heavy battle damage to at least half his survivors, and his acceleration rate would be proof enough of that, even without the platforms' reports. So say he's got the equivalent of eighty wallers' combat power—which is generous, I'd say—and they're still Peep SD(P)s. We don't have as many units as Home Fleet had, but all of ours are Medusas or Harringtons, and that gives us the edge in real combat power. Not only that, but he's got to have used up a lot of ammo. Hell, he didn't fire a single MDM at the LACs, and you saw what they did to his screen. His magazines have to be close to empty."
"So if his situation is so desperate," Judson Latrell asked, "why didn't he abandon the rest of his ships with impeller damage and run for it at a higher acceleration rate in the first place?"
"I suppose the answer to that depends at least in part on exactly what their actual objective is," Kuzak said.
She glanced at the master plot. Twenty-six minutes had passed since Third Fleet had translated back into normal-space. It was hard to believe that barely two hours ago, Home Fleet and all of its units had been safely in orbit around Sphinx. Now they were gone, reduced to spreading patterns of wreckage, and her own command was accelerating steadily towards battle with their killers at 6.01 KPS2. Her base velocity was up to almost ten thousand kilometers per second, she'd traveled the next best thing to eight million kilometers into the RZ, and the range to Second Fleet was coming down to right on sixty million kilometers. Which meant, of course, that they were already in her range, just as she was in theirs.
"Whatever they're up to," she said grimly, "I think you've got a point about their ammunition supply, Jerry. In which case, they aren't going to be hitting us with any more of those monster salvos. And it also means they haven't got enough birds left to waste them firing at long range, with their hit probabilities. We, on the other hand, have full magazines."
"You want to open fire now, Ma'am?" Commander Latrell asked, but she shook her head.
"Not just yet. In fact, not until they do." Her thin smile was cold. "Every kilometer the range drops increases our accuracy by a few thousandths of a percent. As long as they're willing not to shoot, so am I."
"They'll be coming into range of Sphinx in another ten minutes or so, Ma'am," Smithson said quietly.
"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."
"But if they open fire, the Peeps will return it," Latrell pointed out.
"I know," Kuzak agreed. "I've been thinking about that."
She considered numbers and ranges, then turned to Communications.
"Franklin, contact Admiral Caparelli. Tell him I recommend that the Sphinx defenses not fire on these people unless and until they launch against Sphinx."
"Yes, Ma'am," Lieutenant Bradshaw replied.
"Are you sure about that, Ma'am?" Smithson asked. Kuzak looked at him, and he looked back levelly. After all, one of a chief of staff's jobs was to play devil's advocate. "If they're going to bombard the planet, letting them get the first launch off unopposed is likely to cost us," he pointed out.
"But as Judson's just pointed out, if they aren't prepared to bombard the planet and the near-planet yards, and the orbital defenses open fire, they may go ahead and return it," Kuzak responded. "And they have been hammered hard. If Sphinx doesn't fire on them, they're probably going to reserve their fire for us, since we're obviously a much greater threat. Under the circumstances, I think it's worth risking letting them have one launch against the defenses, now that they're all on-line. Especially if they decide not to launch."
"Yes, Ma'am."
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:45 pm

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Theemile wrote:
So while we never asked David, there should have been a small Homefleet segment guarding Gryphon and the belters during BoMa.[snip]Durning BoMa, Sphinx was inside the resonance zone and protected from a quick hyper jump attack, so the fleet was posted at Manticore, but still able to intercept an attacker short of Sphinx. But DeOrville debated his options.

I believe there was. Also IIRC David said that due to being further from the bulk of home fleet that Gryphon over in Manticore-B got the top priority on Apollo upgrades for it's forts. So by BoM Gryphon had many (most? all?) of it's forts upgrades to Keyhole II and Apollo pods. So it would have been a nasty customer for the RHN to bite off, even without much fleet support.

With the long range accuracy of Apollo (even though the FTL link it tops out at 4-5 light minutes without relaying) orbital defenses would have been willing to engage in a max range missile duel with an attacker.


As for Cthia's thought of Sphinx having a smaller dedicated fleet, I'm not sure what that offers over and above what it's 'fixed' orbital forts do. Against a moderate sized attack the forts can hold them clear until the Green detachment of Home Fleet can get there from wherever it was in the system.

Splitting Home Fleet between Manticore and Sphinx risks defeat in detail. To offset that you'd either need to make the Sphinx fleet very small (which also means it doesn't add anything much over the forts) or massively increase the number of ships within Manticore-A. But during wartime fleets at home for defense are constantly in tension with fleets for offensive ops. Manticore just didn't have additional uncommitted modern ships.
The most having a dedicated separate Sphinx detachment might do is cause pressure to upgrade those ships as well - but if High Ridge wouldn't put forward money to upgrade Home Fleet I don't see him being any more willing to fund upgrading a dedicated Sphinx detachment. So even as a funding ploy this doesn't seem useful.


(And of course the BoM was, by probably an order of magnitude, the largest combat every between superdreadnaught; to say nothing of the majority being SD(P)s. Manticore would have had to strip their offensive fleets and the majority of their remaining defensive fleets to the bone to have had the forces to hope to fight a semi-survivable head on engagement against the hundreds of SD(P)s Theisman's plan through at the system)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:49 pm

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cthia wrote:I was under the impression that textev stated that they had lost most of their history. Even who they were, let alone where they came from, or whether anyone else existed until the Peeps came a callin'. No time to read right now. I'm still in VOLUNTEER mode for the hollies.


You're thinking of Bolthole. I'm talking about the planet near Erewhon where Abigail's middie cruise took a violent turn.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by saber964   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:00 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I was under the impression that textev stated that they had lost most of their history. Even who they were, let alone where they came from, or whether anyone else existed until the Peeps came a callin'. No time to read right now. I'm still in VOLUNTEER mode for the hollies.


You're thinking of Bolthole. I'm talking about the planet near Erewhon where Abigail's middie cruise took a violent turn.



The planet is Refuge the system is Tibiron
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:18 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I was under the impression that textev stated that they had lost most of their history. Even who they were, let alone where they came from, or whether anyone else existed until the Peeps came a callin'. No time to read right now. I'm still in VOLUNTEER mode for the hollies.


You're thinking of Bolthole. I'm talking about the planet near Erewhon where Abigail's middie cruise took a violent turn.
saber964 wrote:The planet is Refuge the system is Tibiron

You are right. I confused the two. Thanks for the correction fluid.

****** *

On another front...

“From Admiral Sir Lucien Cortez, Fifth Space Lord, Royal Manticoran Navy,” she read, ...

snip

Fail not in this charge at your peril. By order of Admiral Hamish Alexander-Harrington, Earl White Haven and First Lord of Admiralty, Royal Manticoran Navy, for Her Majesty the Empress.”


I always wondered what that meant...

Fail not in this charge at your peril. Really, what does that ominous statement mean? Phuck up and you'll be castrated? Well, Young should have lost his gonads by order of the same archaic paper he read before assuming command of Warlock.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:27 pm

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cthia wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
You're thinking of Bolthole. I'm talking about the planet near Erewhon where Abigail's middie cruise took a violent turn.
saber964 wrote:The planet is Refuge the system is Tibiron

You are right. I confused the two. Thanks for the correction fluid.

****** *

On another front...

“From Admiral Sir Lucien Cortez, Fifth Space Lord, Royal Manticoran Navy,” she read, ...

snip

Fail not in this charge at your peril. By order of Admiral Hamish Alexander-Harrington, Earl White Haven and First Lord of Admiralty, Royal Manticoran Navy, for Her Majesty the Empress.”


I always wondered what that meant...

Fail not in this charge at your peril. Really, what does that ominous statement mean? Phuck up and you'll be castrated? Well, Young should have lost his gonads by order of the same archaic paper he read before assuming command of Warlock.


I believe that language comes from the British Royal Navy. Vaguely recall it from Hornblower and Aubrey.

Actually, when a captain screws up or loses a ship and survives, there is a hearing.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:26 pm

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I keep coming back to this, when remembering Honor's attempt to lead the Havenites into a trap in the aftermath of Hancock Station, I always thought that systems could be seeded with a sea of ambush pods similar to what was setup by Henke's last stand.

Then, upon desperation like what Honor was under at Hancock, they could...

"Helm, Are we close enough to an ambush station?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:11 pm

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cthia wrote:I keep coming back to this, when remembering Honor's attempt to lead the Havenites into a trap in the aftermath of Hancock Station, I always thought that systems could be seeded with a sea of ambush pods similar to what was setup by Henke's last stand.

Then, upon desperation like what Honor was under at Hancock, they could...

"Helm, Are we close enough to an ambush station?"


Isn't that - in a nutshell - what Mycroft is intended to do?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:24 pm

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cthia wrote:I keep coming back to this, when remembering Honor's attempt to lead the Havenites into a trap in the aftermath of Hancock Station, I always thought that systems could be seeded with a sea of ambush pods similar to what was setup by Henke's last stand.

Then, upon desperation like what Honor was under at Hancock, they could...

"Helm, Are we close enough to an ambush station?"
The problem is scale and maintenance.

The tactical pods like were used at Hancock appear to require servicing after being out in space for just a couple weeks. Given their missiles had only about 7 million km of range you’d need tens of thousands of pods (if not more) to hope to have enough ambush points to lure enemies past a couple no matter how they enter the system. So to service each pod at least once a month you’d need fleets of ships.

It wasn’t really practical until MDMs expanded the range ninefold (or more with ballistic segments). At that point it made sense to develop long endurance system defense pods - which might only need servicing once or twice a year. But those were tied to dedicated fire control, rather than hoping defending ships would be 8n the right spot to control them.
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