Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Is there a reason why future LACs should not all be Katanas? Is there a tactical advantage in having the other LACs?

If you want your LACs to be pure missile defense, and/or anti-LAC units then Katanas are your best current design.

But they're inferior to Shrikes and Ferrets in anti-ship duties (such as LACs defending a system, or raiding a less defended system, might engage in). The Shrikes' BC grade grazer still shreds DDs and CLs, and puts a serious hurt on CAs and BCs. And the Ferrets work synergistically with them providing jamming, decoys, and attack missiles to distract, disorient, and harasser targets.

The SD grade PDLCs the Katana mounts are far less effective that those grasers against targets heavier than a LAC. And their Viper missiles are both shorter ranged, and carry a lighter warhead, than those launched by Shrikes and Ferrets. (Though no LAC has launches a truly heavy warhead)



So for many of the tasks that GA LACs are planned to handle it definitely makes sense, to me, to keep a mix of the 3 classes. But it's entirely possible that the loadout on a given CLAC might be optimized for a particular mission. If you know you're just providing fleet anti-missile screen then maybe you do load pure Katana. If you know your performing a LAC offensive raid then you go much heavier on Shrikes and Ferrets.

cthia wrote:Is there a reason why future LACs should not all be Katanas? Is there a tactical advantage in having the other LACs?

The Katana is not as useful against enemy warships, as its launchers can't fire anything larger than Vipers or CMs. Both the Ferret and Shrike can carry anti-ship missiles(and EW missiles).

Essential in the system defense role, to swat any troublesome pirates or - with a few squadrons of graser-armed Shrikes - SLN raiders that show up.

Well, I suppose with enough Viper hits, any small hyper-capable warship could be defeated. It'd be a lot easier to pop off a few proper anti-ship missiles, though.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Is there a reason why future LACs should not all be Katanas? Is there a tactical advantage in having the other LACs?

The Katana is not as useful against enemy warships, as its launchers can't fire anything larger than Vipers or CMs. Both the Ferret and Shrike can carry anti-ship missiles(and EW missiles).

Essential in the system defense role, to swat any troublesome pirates or - with a few squadrons of graser-armed Shrikes - SLN raiders that show up.

Well, I suppose with enough Viper hits, any small hyper-capable warship could be defeated. It'd be a lot easier to pop off a few proper anti-ship missiles, though.

I could actually see Katanas becoming pretty rare for the near future. They are optimized for anti-LAC duty and are very good at helping thin out the missile storms that modern combat has become. However, the GA's current opponent has neither of those, making the Katana superfluous. Even with pods in tow, a full squadron of the best SLN ships can not create an enenvironment that would threaten a division of RMN SD(p)s, assuming somebody even halfway competent is in command. The Shrike and Ferret would be the preferred LACs to have on hand, as both can be used as forward missile defense and they can also be used to corral fleeing ships.

If the RMN was still fighting the Republic, I would load the CLACs up with a hand full of Shrikes and Ferrets, max a squadron and a half of each, and all the rest Katanas. You would want to keep some, just in case. As it is now, versus the SLN, maybe pack two squadrons of Katanas, again just in case, and all the rest should be heavy attack LACs.

In the future, as the SL collapses, and the successor states start to figure things out, or when you start fighting the MAlign directly, then you will want more Katanas. Until then, doubt it.

crewdude48 wrote:I could actually see Katanas becoming pretty rare for the near future. They are optimized for anti-LAC duty and are very good at helping thin out the missile storms that modern combat has become. However, the GA's current opponent has neither of those, making the Katana superfluous. Even with pods in tow, a full squadron of the best SLN ships can not create an enenvironment that would threaten a division of RMN SD(p)s, assuming somebody even halfway competent is in command. The Shrike and Ferret would be the preferred LACs to have on hand, as both can be used as forward missile defense and they can also be used to corral fleeing ships.

If the RMN was still fighting the Republic, I would load the CLACs up with a hand full of Shrikes and Ferrets, max a squadron and a half of each, and all the rest Katanas. You would want to keep some, just in case. As it is now, versus the SLN, maybe pack two squadrons of Katanas, again just in case, and all the rest should be heavy attack LACs.

In the future, as the SL collapses, and the successor states start to figure things out, or when you start fighting the MAlign directly, then you will want more Katanas. Until then, doubt it.

All granted, but when you're definitely for now fighting someone against whom you can afford to be sloppy, and maybe now and definitely later someone against whom you can't, you may want to go with the careful loadout immediately and just suck up the waste of it against the schmucks in the meantime.

Follow-up question: Are Vipers suitable for putting in (perhaps modified) CM canisters for fire from standard missile launchers? Fire control may be less of an issue, since the Viper can assume more of that duty than old-style CM's. Size may be a worse issue though. The idea would be to give the Ferrets particularly a stronger missile defense and anti-LAC role, though the Shrikes - and larger warships - may get some help out of it too.

JeffEngel wrote:Follow-up question: Are Vipers suitable for putting in (perhaps modified) CM canisters for fire from standard missile launchers? Fire control may be less of an issue, since the Viper can assume more of that duty than old-style CM's. Size may be a worse issue though. The idea would be to give the Ferrets particularly a stronger missile defense and anti-LAC role, though the Shrikes - and larger warships - may get some help out of it too.

Hmm, interesting thought. No point for starships; since the CM tubes on the recent construction can already fire Vipers.

But for Ferrets I'd assume that their magazines are feed tubes are too tight to handle the somewhat longer Viper. I doun't think you could get two Vipers into a LAC-missile sized canister; but I don't see any particular reason you couldn't design a one-Viper sabot sleeve to allow a Ferret to store and launch them instead of a normal missile.

JeffEngel wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:I could actually see Katanas becoming pretty rare for the near future. They are optimized for anti-LAC duty and are very good at helping thin out the missile storms that modern combat has become. However, the GA's current opponent has neither of those, making the Katana superfluous. Even with pods in tow, a full squadron of the best SLN ships can not create an enenvironment that would threaten a division of RMN SD(p)s, assuming somebody even halfway competent is in command. The Shrike and Ferret would be the preferred LACs to have on hand, as both can be used as forward missile defense and they can also be used to corral fleeing ships.

If the RMN was still fighting the Republic, I would load the CLACs up with a hand full of Shrikes and Ferrets, max a squadron and a half of each, and all the rest Katanas. You would want to keep some, just in case. As it is now, versus the SLN, maybe pack two squadrons of Katanas, again just in case, and all the rest should be heavy attack LACs.

In the future, as the SL collapses, and the successor states start to figure things out, or when you start fighting the MAlign directly, then you will want more Katanas. Until then, doubt it.

All granted, but when you're definitely for now fighting someone against whom you can afford to be sloppy, and maybe now and definitely later someone against whom you can't, you may want to go with the careful loadout immediately and just suck up the waste of it against the schmucks in the meantime.

Follow-up question: Are Vipers suitable for putting in (perhaps modified) CM canisters for fire from standard missile launchers? Fire control may be less of an issue, since the Viper can assume more of that duty than old-style CM's. Size may be a worse issue though. The idea would be to give the Ferrets particularly a stronger missile defense and anti-LAC role, though the Shrikes - and larger warships - may get some help out of it too.

If that is the case, then why can't the LACs just launch their missiles and beat feet when in the company of SD(p)s?

If there are GA SD's in the area, why would you need to put LACs in harm's way at all?

And what is this new CM? I didn't get a memo. Damn courier boat must be lost in translation.

Another thing occurred to me. The RMN doesn't have to worry that the SLN can create really bad missile storms, conversely it doesn't need to create those same type storms against them. Apollo is so effective and an embarrassingly low number of missiles will mission kill an SLN SD. Therefore, the need to limpet pods has flown the coop. Why can't CMs be limpeted instead?

cthia wrote:If that is the case, then why can't the LACs just launch their missiles and beat feet when in the company of SD(p)s?

If there are GA SD's in the area, why would you need to put LACs in harm's way at all?

What situation are you talking about? If you are talking about a case where Katanas are providing anti-missile coverage, then they don't want to "beat feet" because they have PDLCs. Even after they have fired their Vipers, they are still very useful for the PDLC coverage they provide well in front of the fleet they are protecting. Now, if Manticore had the better-defended attack CLAC that David has proposed, then you might want to bring LACs in to reload missiles during the battle. But if you don't have that, the PDLCs on the Katanas are still very effective against enemy missiles. The point of LACs on point defense is that they are providing point defense much further out than the fleet itself can do.

If you are talking about a situation where the Ferrets are attacking enemy ships, then you definitely want to pull the LACs back after they fire their missiles. Missiles are their only offensive weapon.

If you are talking about Shrikes attacking enemy ships, then you would not pull them back because their best offensive weapon is the graser. The missiles are nice, but it is the graser that gives the Shrike a real punch. If the environment is dangerous for the Shrike, then you either shouldn't be using Shrikes, or the Shrikes are the only way you can reach them and you have no choice.

And what is this new CM? I didn't get a memo. Damn courier boat must be lost in translation.

I believe he was talking about the Mark-31 counter-missile, upon which the Viper missile is based.

Another thing occurred to me. The RMN doesn't have to worry that the SLN can create really bad missile storms, conversely it doesn't need to create those same type storms against them. Apollo is so effective and an embarrassingly low number of missiles will mission kill an SLN SD. Therefore, the need to limpet pods has flown the coop. Why can't CMs be limpeted instead?

Because there are no counter-missile pods. The concept has been suggested before, and it is possible. Back in 2002 David commented briefly on counter-missile pods: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/162/1. He did not see a use for them at that time, but he did not completely rule them out. The situation has changed since then, and it is possible that the increase in counter-missile links provided by Keyhole II may make them practical. They would have to actually design and build counter-missile pods, but that should not be a huge hurdle.

The only other issue is the problems that all limpetted pods share--blocking sensors and other vital equipment on the surface of the ship. Ships do not limpet pods very often because of these problems. Since the development of the podnaught, limpeted pods has become much more rare.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:If that is the case, then why can't the LACs just launch their missiles and beat feet when in the company of SD(p)s?

If there are GA SD's in the area, why would you need to put LACs in harm's way at all?

What situation are you talking about? If you are talking about a case where Katanas are providing anti-missile coverage, then they don't want to "beat feet" because they have PDLCs. Even after they have fired their Vipers, they are still very useful for the PDLC coverage they provide well in front of the fleet they are protecting. Now, if Manticore had the better-defended attack CLAC that David has proposed, then you might want to bring LACs in to reload missiles during the battle. But if you don't have that, the PDLCs on the Katanas are still very effective against enemy missiles. The point of LACs on point defense is that they are providing point defense much further out than the fleet itself can do.

If you are talking about a situation where the Ferrets are attacking enemy ships, then you definitely want to pull the LACs back after they fire their missiles. Missiles are their only offensive weapon.

If you are talking about Shrikes attacking enemy ships, then you would not pull them back because their best offensive weapon is the graser. The missiles are nice, but it is the graser that gives the Shrike a real punch. If the environment is dangerous for the Shrike, then you either shouldn't be using Shrikes, or the Shrikes are the only way you can reach them and you have no choice.

And what is this new CM? I didn't get a memo. Damn courier boat must be lost in translation.

I believe he was talking about the Mark-31 counter-missile, upon which the Viper missile is based.

Another thing occurred to me. The RMN doesn't have to worry that the SLN can create really bad missile storms, conversely it doesn't need to create those same type storms against them. Apollo is so effective and an embarrassingly low number of missiles will mission kill an SLN SD. Therefore, the need to limpet pods has flown the coop. Why can't CMs be limpeted instead?

Because there are no counter-missile pods. The concept has been suggested before, and it is possible. Back in 2002 David commented briefly on counter-missile pods: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/162/1. He did not see a use for them at that time, but he did not completely rule them out. The situation has changed since then, and it is possible that the increase in counter-missile links provided by Keyhole II may make them practical. They would have to actually design and build counter-missile pods, but that should not be a huge hurdle.

The only other issue is the problems that all limpetted pods share--blocking sensors and other vital equipment on the surface of the ship. Ships do not limpet pods very often because of these problems. Since the development of the podnaught, limpeted pods has become much more rare.

For any situation. From all the talk, I was beginning to think that the LACs could just fire and hand everything off. Missiles and CMs. I have this sinking feeling now that I'm wrong. And I have a distinct notion that it's because I have no clue what the hell a PDLC is.

I know what a PDLC is to the SLN. A Pretty Damn-Destructive Lac Count.

PDLC Personal Defense Laser Cluster.

LAC's can tow and fire a pod or so. Katana's can be used in anti ship role.