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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:57 pm

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cthia wrote:He possibly could have recouped the damage she did to his career as part of the lawsuit. As well as the damage to his social status. Albeit, I don't know if Honor's net worth was extensive at the time since Skydomes had not materialized for her yet.

Which may have been a factor in the decision not to sue, thinking she had nothing in the till to get, worth the trouble. Had she been as rich as she is now...
You'd have to prove monitary losses to his career which would be hard.

But Honor's wealth really came well after HotQ. I believe the initial major infusion was her percentage, as flag captain of the formation, of the prize money on Admiral Chin's surrenders wallers from the Battle of Hancock. Even a tine slice of the value of 6 somewhat beat up SDs (well by the time of FiE they'd somehow morphed into SDs) is a major chunk of change. She'd have gotten another prize money infusion as Admiral at 4th Yelson - but most of the enemy tonnage fled or was destroyed so despite getting a much bigger share the prize pool had to have been a lot smaller.

But prior to those prize money windfall (untaxed windfalls at that) she didn't have enough wealth to be worth going after -- probably just her RMN salary and savings from that.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:35 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But prior to those prize money windfall (untaxed windfalls at that) she didn't have enough wealth to be worth going after -- probably just her RMN salary and savings from that.


She collected a hefty percentage of the contraband Scotty and Harkness confiscated in OBS. She wan't as rich as she was going to be once she was made a Steadholder and Duchess, but she was definitely more worried about the taxman than about the poorhouse.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by saber964   » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:44 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:He possibly could have recouped the damage she did to his career as part of the lawsuit. As well as the damage to his social status. Albeit, I don't know if Honor's net worth was extensive at the time since Skydomes had not materialized for her yet.

Which may have been a factor in the decision not to sue, thinking she had nothing in the till to get, worth the trouble. Had she been as rich as she is now...
You'd have to prove monitary losses to his career which would be hard.

But Honor's wealth really came well after HotQ. I believe the initial major infusion was her percentage, as flag captain of the formation, of the prize money on Admiral Chin's surrenders wallers from the Battle of Hancock. Even a tine slice of the value of 6 somewhat beat up SDs (well by the time of FiE they'd somehow morphed into SDs) is a major chunk of change. She'd have gotten another prize money infusion as Admiral at 4th Yelson - but most of the enemy tonnage fled or was destroyed so despite getting a much bigger share the prize pool had to have been a lot smaller.

But prior to those prize money windfall (untaxed windfalls at that) she didn't have enough wealth to be worth going after -- probably just her RMN salary and savings from that.



Your forgetting the prize money she received in OBS. It was probably in the neighborhood of no more than a couple of million, It's not until SVW and FoD time frame that Honor makes the big bucks.

Honor had the money to make a real fight of any lawsuit by Houseman. The biggest reason why he probably didn't file is the amount of embarrassment Houseman would've suffered. Plus most of the media would've nailed Houseman to the wall, going after a hero on two planets.

Here's another reason why Houseman didn't sue. Honor was technically a head of state and would've had the entire government of Grayson paying her legal bills. Protector Benjamin would've pledged a few million to Honors defense fund out of pocket change.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:54 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:He possibly could have recouped the damage she did to his career as part of the lawsuit. As well as the damage to his social status. Albeit, I don't know if Honor's net worth was extensive at the time since Skydomes had not materialized for her yet.

Which may have been a factor in the decision not to sue, thinking she had nothing in the till to get, worth the trouble. Had she been as rich as she is now...
You'd have to prove monitary losses to his career which would be hard.

But Honor's wealth really came well after HotQ. I believe the initial major infusion was her percentage, as flag captain of the formation, of the prize money on Admiral Chin's surrenders wallers from the Battle of Hancock. Even a tine slice of the value of 6 somewhat beat up SDs (well by the time of FiE they'd somehow morphed into SDs) is a major chunk of change. She'd have gotten another prize money infusion as Admiral at 4th Yelson - but most of the enemy tonnage fled or was destroyed so despite getting a much bigger share the prize pool had to have been a lot smaller.

But prior to those prize money windfall (untaxed windfalls at that) she didn't have enough wealth to be worth going after -- probably just her RMN salary and savings from that.


Don't think it would have been hard to prove monetary losses. A good lawyer could do that quite easily with Houseman's Personal Financial Officer (PFO). Someone like Houseman would have all sorts of lawyers on his payroll. One of my very own sisters serves as my own PFO—being a graduate of Stanford Graduate School of Business.* (Stanford GSB, located in the heart of Silicon Valley highlights a stunningly beautiful campus and consistently ranks ahead of Harvard. As far as business schools they are the crème de la crème.)

If true that Honor's actions caused Houseman financial harm it would have shown immediately in cancelled engagements, cancelled contracts, lost endorsements, stalling sales of publications, severed business relations, etc., etc.,etc. Houseman was a brilliant economist. It is why he was picked as a member of Courvoisier's diplomatic team.

Of course, Houseman could have taken a page out of Ron Goldmans family's book and went after Honor's future earnings.

* By the way, it is my sister's personal quip about a single semester being all that is needed to know if one can cut the mustard and that Stanford GSB isn't in the habit of enrolling ketchup—catch up. A quip that I put to use in another thread. It is my very own mistake in not listing Stanford GSB in the Secession's thread—an oversight that my sister wouldn't find very amusing at all.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:39 pm

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cthia wrote:Don't think it would have been hard to prove monetary losses. A good lawyer could do that quite easily with Houseman's Personal Financial Officer (PFO). Someone like Houseman would have all sorts of lawyers on his payroll. One of my very own sisters serves as my own PFO—being a graduate of Stanford Graduate School of Business.* (Stanford GSB, located in the heart of Silicon Valley highlights a stunningly beautiful campus and consistently ranks ahead of Harvard. As far as business schools they are the crème de la crème.)

If true that Honor's actions caused Houseman financial harm it would have shown immediately in cancelled engagements, cancelled contracts, lost endorsements, stalling sales of publications, severed business relations, etc., etc.,etc. Houseman was a brilliant economist. It is why he was picked as a member of Courvoisier's diplomatic team.

Of course, Houseman could have taken a page out of Ron Goldmans family's book and went after Honor's future earnings.



I feel the hard part would be proving that Honor's slap alone caused his career and social damage. Some one like Houseman would have loads of enemies that where waiting for him to slip up and make a major fool of himself to destroy him. Also he would have bodies buried in his closet that he would not want dug up and brought out in the light of day of a trial.

Do remember filing a lawsuit is one thing.Winning it is a different issue entirely. Houseman may have tied to sue but was advised be legal counsel the odds of getting a jury that would convict Honor was even at best dismal and if he lost he would be responsible for her legal fees. He seems the the type not to risk his own neck if he avoid doing so.

The best he could really do for was to effectively wait things out and let the scandal die. The rebuild his career.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:00 pm

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pnakasone wrote:
I feel the hard part would be proving that Honor's slap alone caused his career and social damage. Some one like Houseman would have loads of enemies that where waiting for him to slip up and make a major fool of himself to destroy him. Also he would have bodies buried in his closet that he would not want dug up and brought out in the light of day of a trial.

Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:01 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
pnakasone wrote:
I feel the hard part would be proving that Honor's slap alone caused his career and social damage. Some one like Houseman would have loads of enemies that where waiting for him to slip up and make a major fool of himself to destroy him. Also he would have bodies buried in his closet that he would not want dug up and brought out in the light of day of a trial.

Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).


Let us be fair to the idiot. The history and reasons behind the conflict between Grayson and Masada where something he could not really wrap his mind around. To him they where trivial compared to what could be gained if they just traded with each other.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:10 am

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pnakasone wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).

Let us be fair to the idiot. The history and reasons behind the conflict between Grayson and Masada where something he could not really wrap his mind around. To him they where trivial compared to what could be gained if they just traded with each other.

You are saying he should get some slack for arrogance fueled ignorance? A diplomat that allows his own personal views to misunderstand a political situation so desperately wrong deserves everything he Houseman got. Not just from Honor but everything that came later. Since he proven he was an inept diplomats, why should his policy suggestions be trusted at all.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:39 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
pnakasone wrote:
I feel the hard part would be proving that Honor's slap alone caused his career and social damage. Some one like Houseman would have loads of enemies that where waiting for him to slip up and make a major fool of himself to destroy him. Also he would have bodies buried in his closet that he would not want dug up and brought out in the light of day of a trial.

Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).

I see it all differently. First, I need to get my facts straight and haven't the time, at the mo, to suffer digital paper cuts. LOL

Houseman's goal was to convince the Graysons of the economic feasibility of joining Manticore. He was supposed to crunch the numbers and make the deal look enticing, a deal the Graysons couldn't refuse. In Houseman's mind, he was simply doing his job of enlightening the Graysons as to how to ultimate spend their money, allocate their funds and steer their economy towards great gains and make the system filthy rich. Spending tons of cash and resources to fight their only neighbor when they should be trading with them was ludicrous to Houseman and the bottom line was what he saw and was interested in. It was all related to why he was recruited and sent out there for.

Houseman wasn't a military strategist or a military man. He wasn't even a military economist. He was simply an economist and he was attempting to do what an economist does. It was only outside of his scope—as deemed by the head of the diplomatic team , Courvoisier—to dabble in Grayson's military affairs. However, it was NOT outside of his scope to show them the comprehensively crunched numbers. In Houseman's head, I imagine that he felt Courvoisier was ignorantly hampering his ability to adequately complete his task because the admiral could hardly understand the intricacies of the mind of an economist and his most probably complicated economic assessments or the objectives Houseman was attempting to lay out. (And I need to reread to see who was actually responsible in choosing Houseman. Who Houseman may have felt he ultimately worked for. Was it The Queen?)

Houseman was not in the habit of half ass doing his job which included a comprehensive economic plan for Grayson. And if the diplomatic team is successful in drawing Grayson in, then Grayson would suddenly find themselves in an entirely new and quite profitable economic reality. But the windfall was to be all encompassing and big enough that it could have easily supported both planets of Grayson and Masada. As a matter of fact, entering into a mutually beneficial trade agreement with each other, would have multiplied the windfall immeasurably. So, on an economic note, what Houseman was putting down was sensible -- less the realities of any military considerations. But. His lapse thereof may have been the fault of his employees and not his own. I got the impression that Houseman was NOT adequately primed, prepared and informed for the task. His objectives should have been made clear on planet before setting sail. I got the impression that it was attempted en route. Which could be construed as both a tactical error of naive misjudgment by the delegation and disrespectful to Houseman and his profession. Iinm, the delegation never wanted Houseman along and that in itself was part of the problem. Houseman's objectives, therefore Houseman, were never taken seriously. An error on the part of the team and conflict of interest waiting to happen. Which did. I'm not saying that Houseman was correct in what he did. Of course he wasn't. But his goals and objectives should have been dealt with before leaving the face of the planet. It should have been a certainty that Houseman was suitable for the job. That may not have been Houseman's mistake.

Also, Houseman was frightened for his life. He was not a military man. He should not have been faulted for being frightened of having a ship blown out from around him. He should NOT have been slapped for being a frightened civilian. Remove him from the equation, yes. Assault him? No.

IMHO, Houseman surely had a case against Honor. That much is obvious. Grayson's legal team and financial backing couldn't have stayed that off. Nor could Honor's bank account have done anything to stave it off except to draw the entire case out. She could have simply prolonged the inevitable, in which point Houseman's losses would have added up to much more -- compounded themselves significantly. Honor might would have been instructed to settle.

Duckk's line of thought is interesting and I think bangs the nail on its head. It could have been that in exchange for dropping the matter the RMN and the the Crown would seal what happened up and make it classified, saving Houseman from embarrassment and possible career damage. Though I can't see Houseman going for it, because he might also have had a case against the RMN and the Crown.

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Last edited by cthia on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:42 am

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pnakasone wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).

Let us be fair to the idiot. The history and reasons behind the conflict between Grayson and Masada where something he could not really wrap his mind around. To him they where trivial compared to what could be gained if they just traded with each other.
PeterZ wrote:You are saying he should get some slack for arrogance fueled ignorance? A diplomat that allows his own personal views to misunderstand a political situation so desperately wrong deserves everything he Houseman got. Not just from Honor but everything that came later. Since he proven he was an inept diplomats, why should his policy suggestions be trusted at all.


But, iinm, he wasn't a diplomat Peter. He was an economist. He was also not a military strategist. He could be charged with being inappropriate for the job, but hiring someone inappropriate is usually the error of the employer.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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