Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:You are saying he should get some slack for arrogance fueled ignorance? A diplomat that allows his own personal views to misunderstand a political situation so desperately wrong deserves everything he Houseman got. Not just from Honor but everything that came later. Since he proven he was an inept diplomats, why should his policy suggestions be trusted at all.

But, iinm, he wasn't a diplomat Peter. He was an economist. He was also not a military strategist. He could be charged with being inappropriate for the job, but hiring someone inappropriate is usually the error of the employer.

His economic advice was to trade with an enemy. Such trade would help that enemy much more than it would help Grayson. That trade wouldn't have fostered peace. As a military policy wonk, he should understand the motives of potential enemies. He failed miserably in his fields of expertise.

Houseman's JOB at the time was the ecomomic advisor to the Manticorian Mission to Grayson. Any other interests of his plus work or engagements were formarly on hold (or he should not have gone) pending his return. He could not have been expected back to Manticore for anyting for perhaps several months. So he didn't miss any booked work.

I don't recall if the striking took place in Manticoreian diplomatic premises but it certainly did take place on Grayson. If it wasn't in formal embassy/consular space, it happend on Grayson and Grayson laws would have applied. Then there was the whole part of Honore actualy doing her job as the surviving Sr. Military Officer in consultaion with the Sr. Diplomatic Officer (the retired Marine Col.) and defending their new allied partner.

Houseman might, under Manticore law and tradition, have the right to challange her to a dual but somehow I don't think he would have the courage to 1) do that or 2) stand the ground himself- #2 would also be a ticit admission of cowardice in itself. Not sure if he could challange under Grayson law but it would be really interesting for a man to challange a woman on Grayson for bitch-slapping him for cowardice in the face of immenent attack by The Faithful.

Honor did get a formal repremand placed in file, along with all the honors and rewards for service she also got at the same time.
Can you picture Honnor's attorney, in front of the mob of news service reporters in the courtroom detailing the craven act of cowardice of a man who's choice in the face of danger was to attempt to order himself on a military ship to run away when he did have the option of leaving with the civilian Manticorian citizens on-planet even though that would have meant abandonding his self proclaime leadership of the Trade and Diplomatic Mission to Grayson while the Navy (and the actual diplomats involved) stood to defend the entire system with which Manticore had esentialy concluded the treaty it had gone there to get?

I'd pay money to see that.

Brigade XO wrote:Houseman's JOB at the time was the ecomomic advisor to the Manticorian Mission to Grayson. Any other interests of his plus work or engagements were formarly on hold (or he should not have gone) pending his return. He could not have been expected back to Manticore for anyting for perhaps several months. So he didn't miss any booked work.

I don't recall if the striking took place in Manticoreian diplomatic premises but it certainly did take place on Grayson. If it wasn't in formal embassy/consular space, it happend on Grayson and Grayson laws would have applied. Then there was the whole part of Honore actualy doing her job as the surviving Sr. Military Officer in consultaion with the Sr. Diplomatic Officer (the retired Marine Col.) and defending their new allied partner.

Houseman might, under Manticore law and tradition, have the right to challange her to a dual but somehow I don't think he would have the courage to 1) do that or 2) stand the ground himself- #2 would also be a ticit admission of cowardice in itself. Not sure if he could challange under Grayson law but it would be really interesting for a man to challange a woman on Grayson for bitch-slapping him for cowardice in the face of immenent attack by The Faithful.

Honor did get a formal repremand placed in file, along with all the honors and rewards for service she also got at the same time.
Can you picture Honnor's attorney, in front of the mob of news service reporters in the courtroom detailing the craven act of cowardice of a man who's choice in the face of danger was to attempt to order himself on a military ship to run away when he did have the option of leaving with the civilian Manticorian citizens on-planet even though that would have meant abandonding his self proclaime leadership of the Trade and Diplomatic Mission to Grayson while the Navy (and the actual diplomats involved) stood to defend the entire system with which Manticore had esentialy concluded the treaty it had gone there to get?

I'd pay money to see that.

The arrogance of the elites. We see it all the time. Just check Washington, London, Berlin, etc.

And we might recall that it did her career a bit of damage. Vice Admiral Parks did not trust her or want to deal with her at first.

ldwechsler wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Houseman's JOB at the time was the ecomomic advisor to the Manticorian Mission to Grayson. Any other interests of his plus work or engagements were formarly on hold (or he should not have gone) pending his return. He could not have been expected back to Manticore for anyting for perhaps several months. So he didn't miss any booked work.

I don't recall if the striking took place in Manticoreian diplomatic premises but it certainly did take place on Grayson. If it wasn't in formal embassy/consular space, it happend on Grayson and Grayson laws would have applied. Then there was the whole part of Honore actualy doing her job as the surviving Sr. Military Officer in consultaion with the Sr. Diplomatic Officer (the retired Marine Col.) and defending their new allied partner.

Houseman might, under Manticore law and tradition, have the right to challange her to a dual but somehow I don't think he would have the courage to 1) do that or 2) stand the ground himself- #2 would also be a ticit admission of cowardice in itself. Not sure if he could challange under Grayson law but it would be really interesting for a man to challange a woman on Grayson for bitch-slapping him for cowardice in the face of immenent attack by The Faithful.

Honor did get a formal repremand placed in file, along with all the honors and rewards for service she also got at the same time.
Can you picture Honnor's attorney, in front of the mob of news service reporters in the courtroom detailing the craven act of cowardice of a man who's choice in the face of danger was to attempt to order himself on a military ship to run away when he did have the option of leaving with the civilian Manticorian citizens on-planet even though that would have meant abandonding his self proclaime leadership of the Trade and Diplomatic Mission to Grayson while the Navy (and the actual diplomats involved) stood to defend the entire system with which Manticore had esentialy concluded the treaty it had gone there to get?

I'd pay money to see that.

The arrogance of the elites. We see it all the time. Just check Washington, London, Berlin, etc.

And we might recall that it did her career a bit of damage. Vice Admiral Parks did not trust her or want to deal with her at first.

Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Because she was a known loose canon. Let's face it, our gal has a dark side that is as unpredictable and dangerous as Dr. Jekyll's Hyde. It is descendant from her father's own unstable nuclear core. The anomaly can be traced back to one of the documented side effects of the Meyerdahl Betas. Honor's genetic solution was too intellectually successful, they had a hard time suffering the plights of fools. IMO.

So Honor came off to someone completely unimpressed with her military accomplishments as a bit of a bloodthirsty maniac for the spotlight. In this quite familiar instance, her nuclear core was missing a control rod. Honor went Meyerdahl B ballistic. I understand your loyalty to her, but in the spirit of justice...

As a side effect, Meyerdahl Betas have a nitroglycerin temper. All of that would have come out in a trial.

Honor would have settled. An enraged, vengeful, scorned of a bitch-slapped Houseman might not have wanted her to settle. He might would have wanted to drag it all out in court to embarrass her.

cthia wrote:As a side effect, Meyerdahl Betas have a nitroglycerin temper. All of that would have come out in a trial.

Honor would have settled. An enraged, vengeful, scorned of a bitch-slapped Houseman might not have wanted her to settle. He might would have wanted to drag it all out in court to embarrass her.

You keep acting like everyone knows Honor is a Genie. That kind of stuff is very personal in the Honorverse. It's the family dirty secret, not a note in her personal bio, or on file with the Feds. We only know it because we are the 3rd party viewer of the event with narration and internal dialogue; it's not something that would come up in a normal conversation.

Besides, like today, everyone in society is held to a higher standard than just the basis of their genetic background. Courts do not rule stating that this ethnic background is more prevalent to steal an object, or another is likely to commit murder. Genetic background is neither an excuse for past behavior nor a determination of future behavior in advanced societies. We are more than just the collection of genes which define our physical makeup.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:As a side effect, Meyerdahl Betas have a nitroglycerin temper. All of that would have come out in a trial.

Honor would have settled. An enraged, vengeful, scorned of a bitch-slapped Houseman might not have wanted her to settle. He might would have wanted to drag it all out in court to embarrass her.

You keep acting like everyone knows Honor is a Genie. That kind of stuff is very personal in the Honorverse. It's the family dirty secret, not a note in her personal bio, or on file with the Feds. We only know it because we are the 3rd party viewer of the event with narration and internal dialogue; it's not something that would come up in a normal conversation.

Besides, like today, everyone in society is held to a higher standard than just the basis of their genetic background. Courts do not rule stating that this ethnic background is more prevalent to steal an object, or another is likely to commit murder. Genetic background is neither an excuse for past behavior nor a determination of future behavior in advanced societies. We are more than just the collection of genes which define our physical makeup.

You must not be a fan of Matlock's. His legal fees are 100K a case. He's worth it. There may be cause to bribe someone or money made available as means of motivation for the clerk of court on Sphinx or Beowulf or wherever Honor's records are lurking. Heck, Dimitri may be able to get his hands on damaging personal evidence. These high powered lawyers are in the business to know. They are paid quite handsomely to find these things out, limited only by the client's deep pockets. Houseman has deep pockets.

Bottom line, I suppose I am rather confident that her details would emerge in such a high profile case, especially with the probable help of disgruntled enemies chomping at the bit at Harrington's ankles, who would go out of their way to provide information to the prosecution.

cthia wrote:Because she was a known loose canon. Let's face it, our gal has a dark side that is as unpredictable and dangerous as Dr. Jekyll's Hyde. It is descendant from her father's own unstable nuclear core. The anomaly can be traced back to one of the documented side effects of the Meyerdahl Betas. Honor's genetic solution was too intellectually successful, they had a hard time suffering the plights of fools. IMO.

Was that documented somewhere in the actual text of the novels, or just in your head? Because nowhere in the actual novels is "heightened aggression" or "lessened impulse control" mentioned as a side-effect of the Meyerdahl mods (they are specifically noted as lacking the behavioural side effects of other intelligence enhancemeent mods).

So Honor came off to someone completely unimpressed with her military accomplishments as a bit of a bloodthirsty maniac for the spotlight. In this quite familiar instance, her nuclear core was missing a control rod. Honor went Meyerdahl B ballistic. I understand your loyalty to her, but in the spirit of justice...

... in the spirit of justice, you just sort of made an argument that Meyerdahl Betas are all dangerous individuals who cannot be trusted in positions of authority. I am not sure that that's an argument anyone in a high-profile lawsuit is going to make, seeing as how a quarter of Sphinx' population carry the Meyerdahl mods.

Theemile wrote:You keep acting like everyone knows Honor is a Genie. That kind of stuff is very personal in the Honorverse. It's the family dirty secret, not a note in her personal bio, or on file with the Feds. We only know it because we are the 3rd party viewer of the event with narration and internal dialogue; it's not something that would come up in a normal conversation.

It would certainly be in her RMN medical file. As for it being a dirty secret: Given the millions of Meyerdahl Beta carriers in Manticore, I would assume it to be not very dirty at all.

Besides, like today, everyone in society is held to a higher standard than just the basis of their genetic background. Courts do not rule stating that this ethnic background is more prevalent to steal an object, or another is likely to commit murder. Genetic background is neither an excuse for past behavior nor a determination of future behavior in advanced societies. We are more than just the collection of genes which define our physical makeup.

Indeed. If you make an argument that someone was or is unsuited for a role based on their genetic makeup, you better have solid objective evidence for that.

cthia wrote:Bottom line, I suppose I am rather confident that her details would emerge in such a high profile case, especially with the probable help of disgruntled enemies chomping at the bit at Harrington's ankles, who would go out of their way to provide information to the prosecution.

Yeah, okay, but there's information that is useful to you and information that isn't. Knowing that Honor is a genie from a rather widespread line (one which doesn't carry any specific stigma at that) isn't useful, unless you want to make arguments that would bring up any number of advocacy groups in Honor's support; After all, Manticore has made it a point to recruit genies for their military and incorporate them into their society (or did you think that gene slaves aren't genies?).

The E wrote:Was that documented somewhere in the actual text of the novels, or just in your head? Because nowhere in the actual novels is "heightened aggression" or "lessened impulse control" mentioned as a side-effect of the Meyerdahl mods (they are specifically noted as lacking the behavioural side effects of other intelligence enhancemeent mods).

While Cthia has inferred more than is implied, there is textev that Honor, specifically, and Myerdahl Betas in general need to channel their aggression through discipline, structure, and Duty. They can be loose cannons when discipline, structure, and/or Duty are lost.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where that bit of information is to be found.

Weird Harold wrote:While Cthia has inferred more than is implied, there is textev that Honor, specifically, and Myerdahl Betas in general need to channel their aggression through discipline, structure, and Duty. They can be loose cannons when discipline, structure, and/or Duty are lost.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where that bit of information is to be found.

I would really like to see that passage. The only references I could find point out that the Meyerdahl mods do not have an appreciable effect on temperament (as opposed to other, more extreme mods developed during the final war or afterwards).