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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:26 am

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So, when the US shares intel with other countries, the FBI heads out and spends 2 years vetting every person likely to come in contact with that information. Before we allow NATO troops or members to share intel we vet their politicians officers and enlisted likely to come in contact with that info? WE allow our president to be vetted by Germany? The members of our Senate committees? I certainly don't think so. Not even Janacek was as conspiracy prone as a certain US president who shall not be mentioned any more in this subject.

Governments used to assume that their allies were as competent as they were themselves.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:29 pm

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That is a horse of a much different color than allowing individuals who have not been vetted to come into our country and venture onto sensitive and secure areas that have not been slated for sharing—such as subcontractors who can install hardware or software to circumvent our emplaced security and obtain far more sensitive data than the data cleared for release as shared information to other countries.

Our president does not need to be vetted by Germany. He is not going to be allowed anywhere Germany does not want him to be, without being closely monitored at all times. Do you think the German president will likely be allowed inside Area 51 or Pine Gap? Besides, you do not need to vet entities that are already privy to certain sensitive information. Shared intel is data that is expounded upon or fleshed out - cross referenced, NOT strictly classified revelations. There will always be certain information that will remain classified as a "need to know" basis even from your allies. Because if they are invaded, their files are as well.


In Laymanese:
If you and I are given an all nighter of a naughty party - wet T-shirt and Daisy Dukes lap dance - by Taylor Swift in Vegas, she does not need to vet cthia and WeirdlyWired to be privy to information that you and I damn well already know. But that does not mean that cthia and WeirdlyWired will be admitted to whatever classified naughtiness is going on inside of Taylor Swift's boudoir.

I imagine Taylor will vet us both before the lap dance. In my case, she will be privy to the fact that I am married, and that if my wife finds out about the whole sordid affair that I'll be Bobbitted. So whatever happens in Vegas, Taylor knows will stay in Vegas as far as cthia is concerned. Vested interest of silence. If you were at the party, I'd imagine Taylor holds your testes or trust as well.

Also, be advised of the difference between need-to-know and need-to-share.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:13 pm

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There is always the ever present headache of having to chose what information to share, when, and with who. Not just with allied governments but within the government it self.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:59 pm

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pnakasone wrote:There is always the ever present headache of having to chose what information to share, when, and with who. Not just with allied governments but within the government it self.

Indeed, it is referred to as the "sweet spot." Oftentimes it is rather difficult to avoid landing on a spot that is too sweet or too sour.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:10 pm

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cthia wrote:That is a horse of a much different color than allowing individuals who have not been vetted to come into our country and venture onto sensitive and secure areas that have not been slated for sharing—such as subcontractors who can install hardware or software to circumvent our emplaced security and obtain far more sensitive data than the data cleared for release as shared information to other countries.

Our president does not need to be vetted by Germany. He is not going to be allowed anywhere Germany does not want him to be, without being closely monitored at all times. Do you think the German president will likely be allowed inside Area 51 or Pine Gap? Besides, you do not need to vet entities that are already privy to certain sensitive information. Shared intel is data that is expounded upon or fleshed out - cross referenced, NOT strictly classified revelations. There will always be certain information that will remain classified as a "need to know" basis even from your allies. Because if they are invaded, their files are as well.


In Laymanese:
If you and I are given an all nighter of a naughty party - wet T-shirt and Daisy Dukes lap dance - by Taylor Swift in Vegas, she does not need to vet cthia and WeirdlyWired to be privy to information that you and I damn well already know. But that does not mean that cthia and WeirdlyWired will be admitted to whatever classified naughtiness is going on inside of Taylor Swift's boudoir.

I imagine Taylor will vet us both before the lap dance. In my case, she will be privy to the fact that I am married, and that if my wife finds out about the whole sordid affair that I'll be Bobbitted. So whatever happens in Vegas, Taylor knows will stay in Vegas as far as cthia is concerned. Vested interest of silence. If you were at the party, I'd imagine Taylor holds your testes or trust as well.

Also, be advised of the difference between need-to-know and need-to-share.


So Some US president and some Asian PM sitting down in a resort in Floridaover dinner discusing how to respond to a mad-man Dictator of another Asian Country is not some sort of security snafu?

Again We get back to the duties of a Steadholder's bodyguard. Again we get back to trusting our allies to do their own vetting. Again being granted whatever they need being granted to do their job in deference to the laws of an ally. Who may not have NEED TO KNOW, but, however still have their official and legal job to do with the blessing of your queen ... Thank You Very Much.

Even Emperor Whomever Andermam XIV ( or whichever)gave express exception to the rule about people being armed in the presence of Royal Family to von Rabenstrage to accomodate Honor and her guardsmen. Again Need to Know ???

Doesn't seem to be an issue in the 'verse.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:45 am

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cthia wrote:
pnakasone wrote:There is always the ever present headache of having to chose what information to share, when, and with who. Not just with allied governments but within the government it self.

Indeed, it is referred to as the "sweet spot." Oftentimes it is rather difficult to avoid landing on a spot that is too sweet or too sour.


Then you have all the "fun" issues of various rivalries you get in civilian government and military intel services within the same government then add that to working with another governments various rivalries.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:30 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
So, no, warships do not appear to have separate EVA suits. And, while I can't remember specific text-ev, I'd guess that power armor is designed to be worn over a skinsuit rather than to replace it...


The Marine armored skin suit is identical to the Navy version on the skin side, but provides a medium level of armored protection on the outside. According to HoS, the Marine skin suit is not as comfortable as the Navy version (Light armor is provided by unpowered armor, presumably worn over the normal working uniform).

Neither HoS nor my memory of any discussion of battle armor states that battle armor is worn over a skin suit.
Jonathan_S wrote:For the heck of it I went and checked Jayne's and both the Mantie and Havenite powe armor are described as bodysuits; and the Mantie one further specifies that the basic glove is identical to that of a skinsuit (allowing operation of any computers, equipment, etc. while an armored gauntlet can be pulled over that for combat.
Also the glossary of AAC and WOH defined powered armor "Battle armor combining a vac suit with protection proof against most man-portable weapons, with very powerful exoskeletal "muscles," sophisticated on-board sensors, and maneuvering thrusters for use in vacuum."
So it seems you are right; it's not worn over a skinsuit.

But that implies you have to strip to enter power armor - and then it's in effect a skinsuit with heavy powered armor permanently molded onto it. That seems like a weird design choice to me. On the one hand it does ensure that if an Marine reached the 'morgue', no mater what they're wearing, they can don their power armor. (No worries that their skinsuit is in another part of the ship, station, or base). And certainly parts of a skinsuit, like the thrusters or the Marine version's integral armor are unnecessary inside powered armor and a waste of space.

On the other hand that means if the morgue is in vacuum or has a toxic atmosphere from fire or battle damage that a Marine can't don their power armor because they have to strip out of their skinsuit, slide into a new custom fitted bodysuit - which takes a while. And you also get the fun of redoing the plumbing connections; oh joy.

In contrast if, as I'd originally assumed, you wrapped power armor around a skinsuit you could just slip in and connect the umbilical to access additional power and environmental reserves of the power armor. You'd probably also need less custom fitting of the power armor as it would be the skinsuit that needed to be super tailored to the individual body; while power armor should be able to auto adjust to at least a limited range of skinsuit sizes. That also provides a bit more flexibility in is issuing armor to whoever is available in an emergency.

Finally if you were in a separate skinsuit you'd have the ability to bail out if your armor should its power be depleted or it somehow be rendered immobile; you'd still have a minimally armored environmental suit on. Whereas the description in Jayne's hints that you be naked if you crawled out of power armor (I'd assume not even underwear because, like a skinsuit, you'd need plumbing connections)..

Ok, do forgive me for rehashing this, but there is still a question I'd like to ask on this matter.

First, I'd like to borrow a post of saber964's from the "Information I'd Love to Know" thread because it mirrors my own thoughts. It is regarding an initial question I had on the difference between lifeboats and lifepods and it ties into my questions about the plumbing.
saber964 wrote:My guess on lifeboats and lifepods is much like they are today so to speak. Lifeboats are minimally powered to get you (hopefully) to land and tow life-rafts to shore if practical. Civilian ship normally carry lifeboats for a ships crew + 25% extra. But navy ships carry only a minimal number of 'lifeboat's' and a whole lot of life-rafts which when launched sit and drift near the wreck site with radio locator beacons going beep, beep. In the Honorverse I see much the same idea.


I really meant to ask this then but it slipped my mind. Lifeboats have an ability to cover some distance, to enter atmosphere and actually land. Now, I'm going to assume, in case there is no chance to actually reach a planet, that the power can be diverted to life support (Star Trek baggage). That would imply a very long time to hang out in space - should the space sickness of claustrophobia not consume you. That would also imply a much more extreme dependence on your plumbing. And I would assume that there is a limited onboard storage for excrement on a skinsuit. So I would suppose that a lifeboat would stand in for extra storage. But how would that actually work?

I'm not even sure if spacesuits are worn inside the lifeboats. Hope this question as posed makes sense to someone, 'cause you'll have one over on me if it does.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:18 pm

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cthia wrote:
saber964 wrote:My guess on lifeboats and lifepods is much like they are today so to speak. Lifeboats are minimally powered to get you (hopefully) to land and tow life-rafts to shore if practical. Civilian ship normally carry lifeboats for a ships crew + 25% extra. But navy ships carry only a minimal number of 'lifeboat's' and a whole lot of life-rafts which when launched sit and drift near the wreck site with radio locator beacons going beep, beep. In the Honorverse I see much the same idea.


I really meant to ask this then but it slipped my mind. Lifeboats have an ability to cover some distance, to enter atmosphere and actually land. Now, I'm going to assume, in case there is no chance to actually reach a planet, that the power can be diverted to life support (Star Trek baggage). That would imply a very long time to hang out in space - should the space sickness of claustrophobia not consume you. That would also imply a much more extreme dependence on your plumbing. And I would assume that there is a limited onboard storage for excrement on a skinsuit. So I would suppose that a lifeboat would stand in for extra storage. But how would that actually work?

I'm not even sure if spacesuits are worn inside the lifeboats. Hope this question as posed makes sense to someone, 'cause you'll have one over on me if it does.

The passenger liner was described as having "outsized lifeboats" but Wayfairer was described as having Life Pods or Escape Pod (pod 184 that Steilman and Co. were planning to steal was described both ways), and PNS Falchion is described as blowing up without launching "life pods", and HMS Hawkwing so blasted some "life pods" clear before she blew up. So military ships seems to carry pods, not boats. Though, if possible, they also use pinnaces and shuttles during an abandon ship operation.

The pod 184 was a 10 person pod and about all we're told about them is "In deep space, they were little more than life support bubbles fitted with transponders which both sides were supposedly duty bound to pick up after an engagement, but they were also designed to be capable of independent atmospheric entry if there should happen to be a habitable planet handy when disaster struck."

I have to imagine that you aren't required to wear suits in them because a disaster could occur when the ship wasn't expecting combat - in which case most of the crew would be in normal cloths, not skinsuits. But equally I'd think the pods should be flexible enough to handle skinsuited people for the pods entire life support endurance - not just long enough to blast clear. You don't wear clothes inside the skinsuit, so even if you wanted to take it off once the pod was floating clear you likely wouldn't have anything else to wear.

But the question would be would you turn off the suit's environmental systems and just pop off your helmet, or would you be able to umbilical into the pod and keep buttoned up while still not running down the suit's internal life support.


As for your solid waste question we don't know enough about how the suits handle them to know how a life pod might (or might not) be able to increase that endurance. But again, the pod would need to have facilities to sanitarily defecate for people just in normal clothes (chemical toilet, or something). I also wonder if grav plates are low enough power that the pod can afford to run them, or if you've got to float in zero-g. The later would make restroom use far more problematic...
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:05 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:As for your solid waste question we don't know enough about how the suits handle them to know how a life pod might (or might not) be able to increase that endurance. But again, the pod would need to have facilities to sanitarily defecate for people just in normal clothes (chemical toilet, or something).


ISTR that skinsuits recycle everything with nanites. Solid waste would logically be included in the recycling. Lifeboats/pods/rafts would probably use the same sort of technology -- recycle everything as much as possible.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:24 pm

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I was always surprised that attempted assassinations in the technologically advanced Honorverse hasn't progressed beyond suicide by armsman or by Honor's finger. To be certain, nanite compulsion takes assassination to a new level controlling assassin by remote control, but the assassin himself employs the same age-old tactic of having to get within range and line of sight of target to deploy a usually hidden but conventional weapon before shooting.

Even modern day terrorists strap enough C-4 to their body to effect a blast radius that ensures the target's death and many collateral deaths as well. Yet the mechanics of pulling a gun telegraphs the act. With Honorverse tech it seems that explosive devices or elements can be surgically implanted within the body, and the nanite programmed to activate when shaking the target's hand thus no warning to human or cat. Activation can be achieved by pressing a button surgically implanted under the left thumb by pressing thumb and forefinger together while simultaneously engaging another button in the middle of the palm by closing the remaining three fingers with enough pressure. Boom! Target eliminated.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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