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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 am

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Every time I come across it, I always think how ironic it is that Barbara Bancroft is considered on the one planet the 'Mother of Grayson' and on the other the 'Harlot of Satan.'

They are both very religious sects. I wonder how her divorce from Steadholder Bancroft was managed.

Barbara's entire story runs the gauntlet of emotions. Heroic, altruistic, happy, sad, disastrous, ironic.

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Last edited by cthia on Thu May 14, 2015 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dieu_Le_Fera   » Sun May 25, 2014 12:40 pm

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When disagreements come up in religious thought, even when in the same sect, it can have some very bad consequences. The fact that both Grayson and Masada are so fervent in their beliefs would have just compounded the issue no matter how it started.

Since you brought up Grayson, I have always wondered why the Masadans didn't just start throwing asteroids at Grayson from Blackbird to begin with. I doubt that even as far behind as they were in technology, that it wouldn't be possible. We are already experimenting with the idea of manipulating their orbit/trajectory.

In-fact I am a bit surprised that it isn't specifically part of the Eridani Edict, though it could be implied that it is I guess, if you just use the edict as a blanket statement. In that regard though it just might not be practical with technology so far ahead that spotting and stopping an asteroid wouldn't be too difficult... but I am not so sure if there was more then a few heading to the planet at the same time.

*Perhaps It is just because I watched too much Babylon 5 (what happened to the Narn homeworld) and just read through the Expanse Series*
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun May 25, 2014 12:48 pm

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Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:Since you brought up Grayson, I have always wondered why the Masadans didn't just start throwing asteroids at Grayson from Blackbird to begin with. I doubt that even as far behind as they were in technology, that it wouldn't be possible. We are already experimenting with the idea of manipulating their orbit/trajectory.


As much as trying to decipher Masadan thinking makes my head hurt, I'm pretty sure that they were more interested in taking control of Grayson rather than destroying it. Destroying Grayson is a last resort, "if we can't have it, you can't either" tactic.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Potato   » Sun May 25, 2014 12:55 pm

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Correct. Also, prior to gaining impeller tech, they could not hope to launch asteroids with enough velocity to make it through without being intercepted and deflected. With impeller tech, they would have been detected during the boost phase, plus the inner system of Yeltsin's Star was fairly well wired for detection by then.

Weird Harold wrote:As much as trying to decipher Masadan thinking makes my head hurt, I'm pretty sure that they were more interested in taking control of Grayson rather than destroying it. Destroying Grayson is a last resort, "if we can't have it, you can't either" tactic.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:10 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:Since you brought up Grayson, I have always wondered why the Masadans didn't just start throwing asteroids at Grayson from Blackbird to begin with. I doubt that even as far behind as they were in technology, that it wouldn't be possible. We are already experimenting with the idea of manipulating their orbit/trajectory.


As much as trying to decipher Masadan thinking makes my head hurt, I'm pretty sure that they were more interested in taking control of Grayson rather than destroying it. Destroying Grayson is a last resort, "if we can't have it, you can't either" tactic.

I agree too, though admit that I don't quite understand it because I think I remember reading that Masada was a much better planet, less hostile. So I don't understand why they wanted Grayson so badly. I undoubtedly missed that part in text, and my guess is that it was a religious obligation to save their home planet from Satan and deliver the Graysons from evil. I can only surmise that they felt the Tester required it of them.

I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless Grayson's dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.

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Last edited by cthia on Sun May 25, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dieu_Le_Fera   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:19 pm

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I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


The ship sent was pre-FTL if I remember right, waking everyone up and then going... "oops, this might not be the best planet" might not have been plausible. I agree with the other arguments, though I have my doubts on one point, respectfully of course, about pre-impeller technology easily being able to deflect a mass of asteroids. Two, three even four meteor strikes would be, as far as the planet is concerned no worse than nuking the planet from orbit with a dozen nukes, which was the idea of the Masadans in the first place.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:32 pm

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cthia wrote:I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


As Dieu_Le_Fera mentioned, the original colony ship was a sleeper ship, programmed to go to Yeltsing/Grayson. Once they arrived and were woken up, they probably didn't have the capability to head off to Masada, which is several light years away.

They were kinda stuck where they were.

Also, I believe it's been mentioned that Masada is a little cooler than Grayson, so with long-distance examination of the two planets, it was probably determined that Grayson was the better choice. Somehow, whoever decided that missed getting data on the composition of the atmosphere. I'd think that they should have been able to detect at least a bit of the toxins and heavy metals in the atmosphere.

tl;dr: The plot required it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by crewdude48   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:36 pm

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cthia wrote:I agree too, though admit that I don't quite understand it because I think I remember reading that Masada was a much better planet, less hostile. So I don't understand why they wanted Grayson so badly. I undoubtedly missed that part in text, and my guess is that it was a religious obligation to save their home planet from Satan and deliver the Graysons from evil. I can only surmise that they felt the Tester required it of them.


The reason the Masadans wanted Grayson was because that was the world that GOD himself had led them to. That was the world He wanted them to live in. According to text, the Faithful believed that if they made society on Grayson as good and Godly as possible, then the Tester would transform it into a new Eden.

cthia wrote:I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


Short answer; nobody knew about it. In HotQ, they state that Masada was only discovered shortly before the civil war.

The colonists very specifically set out to part of the universe that had not been scouted or surveyed. Grayson was the first habitable planet that they happened upon, for various definitions of habitable. The entire plan was "fly that way for x amount of time, then find somewhere to live." I remember, back when I was a boy scout, on our hiking trips; we would stop for the night at an OK campsite, and then the next morning start hiking again, only to walk past a much better campsite within the first hour or so. All you can do is grumble and curse about it.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:38 pm

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Wiki wrote:
The Doctrine of the Second Fall was a religious doctrine of the Faithful of the Church of Humanity Unchained.
It dealt with the fact that in the Masadans' eyes Barbara Bancroft's betrayal of her husband, which caused their defeat and exile, marked the second time a woman caused a fatal defeat to those loyal to God after Eve's "fall" in the Old Testament.

The doctrine was used as a legitimation of the Masadans' surpression of their women. (HH2)

Coincidence that a woman makes the biggest mistakes in two planet's religious history?

There is always the flip side of a coin. It is interesting, because of Barbara Bancroft and her deeds, that Masada didn't think that they were unworthy of Tester.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 25, 2014 1:46 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:
cthia wrote:I agree too, though admit that I don't quite understand it because I think I remember reading that Masada was a much better planet, less hostile. So I don't understand why they wanted Grayson so badly. I undoubtedly missed that part in text, and my guess is that it was a religious obligation to save their home planet from Satan and deliver the Graysons from evil. I can only surmise that they felt the Tester required it of them.


The reason the Masadans wanted Grayson was because that was the world that GOD himself had led them to. That was the world He wanted them to live in. According to text, the Faithful believed that if they made society on Grayson as good and Godly as possible, then the Tester would transform it into a new Eden.

cthia wrote:I also don't understand or missed why Masada wasn't the first settlement, unless its dangers were not apparent or irreparable ship damage.


Short answer; nobody knew about it. In HotQ, they state that Masada was only discovered shortly before the civil war.

The colonists very specifically set out to part of the universe that had not been scouted or surveyed. Grayson was the first habitable planet that they happened upon, for various definitions of habitable. The entire plan was "fly that way for x amount of time, then find somewhere to live." I remember, back when I was a boy scout, on our hiking trips; we would stop for the night at an OK campsite, and then the next morning start hiking again, only to walk past a much better campsite within the first hour or so. All you can do is grumble and curse about it.

Thanks dude. That illuminated lots of my dark spots. For the life of me I couldn't understand why they didn't accept that they got a much better deal. Or that their impossible egos didn't lead them to surmise that, compared to Grayson, Masada was led to a new Eden.

Thanks for that info. May I ask what text it came out of?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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