Honorverse ramblings and musings

n7axw wrote:First a nit... maybe, because I'm not completely sure of my assertion here. So I could stand to be corrected. My impression is not that the Peeps were not buying Solarian warships; they were buying Solly tech to incorporate into their own designs. The turning point on this came when Erewhon became a Haven ally as a result of which Haven got that Manticoran tech which Erewhon was in possession of at the time, after which Haven's stuff became more advanced than the League...

Apparently one element of Haven's pursuit of Solarian technology was the purchase of three (somewhat stripped and obsolete) light cruisers as a way of getting some of that technology. More recently, and much more extensively, they'd been buying Solarian tech in much smaller, discrete packages. So you had the right idea of the big picture; the CL hulks were just an odd footnote in that history.

And even before Haven's tech was more advanced than the League's (in military hardware), it was more appropriate to the modern threat environment. The League's thrown some tech at their warships without having any regard for what they really need militarily, because they haven't had a war to fight, they haven't felt threatened, and they haven't been constitutionally prepared to take other people's modern experiences seriously. Even then though, the League has been throwing tech half-heartedly at designs, for lack of naval funding (proportionately), and they've been still stuck building ships with (almost) current tech to fight the kinds of battles that the laserhead already started making things of the past.

Hutch wrote:Quite right, I forgot Vigilant was CA. Still, 3CA's, 3 CL's and 4 DD's should not have been a match for 3 BC's (in Solarian thinking), so it was obviously due to poor shiphandling by those neo-barb Monicians, not anything like longer-range and more accurate missiles, nope, nope, nope...

The three SLN BCs faced the remainder of the scratch built squadron. There is a reason that Hexapuma was firing only 35 missile salvos.

Here are the results of the ~1,000 missile launch from the Eroica Station of better system defense missiles than the SLN had ever used before. Though closely match drive endurance of what was fired at Honor is HotQ at Blackbird. That was from ground based launchers for what it is worth.

Hopefully I got the italics right.

SoS Chapter 57 wrote:Javelin, Rondeau, and Gallant were gone. Audacious was savagely damaged and lamed, with less than a quarter of her weapons left. Vigilant was little more than a hulk, and Warlock was severely damaged. Hexapuma’s more modern point defense—and an inordinate share of pure luck—had let her escape with far less damage than her older sisters, but all things were relative. Her maximum acceleration, even without pods, was no better than four hundred gravities. She was down to thirty-five tubes, and a quarter of her broadside grasers—sixty percent of her starboard energy broadside—and one of her after chasers were gone. Thirty-seven of her people were confirmed dead, with at least another seventeen wounded . . . including Surgeon Commander Orban. His sick berth attendants were doing their best, but none of them were fully trained physicians.

So three ships destroyed before the BCs are even detected. Once the BCs are detected the damaged CA (Vigilant) is scuttled. Ammo ship doesn't matter as it can't get there in time.

So 6 ships faced 3 SLN BCs. Only 2 of them damaged CAs. The rest were damaged to one extent or another.

Have fun,
T2M

Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:First a nit... maybe, because I'm not completely sure of my assertion here. So I could stand to be corrected. My impression is not that the Peeps were not buying Solarian warships; they were buying Solly tech to incorporate into their own designs. The turning point on this came when Erewhon became a Haven ally as a result of which Haven got that Manticoran tech which Erewhon was in possession of at the time, after which Haven's stuff became more advanced than the League...

Apparently one element of Haven's pursuit of Solarian technology was the purchase of three (somewhat stripped and obsolete) light cruisers as a way of getting some of that technology. More recently, and much more extensively, they'd been buying Solarian tech in much smaller, discrete packages. So you had the right idea of the big picture; the CL hulks were just an odd footnote in that history.

And even before Haven's tech was more advanced than the League's (in military hardware), it was more appropriate to the modern threat environment. The League's thrown some tech at their warships without having any regard for what they really need militarily, because they haven't had a war to fight, they haven't felt threatened, and they haven't been constitutionally prepared to take other people's modern experiences seriously. Even then though, the League has been throwing tech half-heartedly at designs, for lack of naval funding (proportionately), and they've been still stuck building ships with (almost) current tech to fight the kinds of battles that the laserhead already started making things of the past.

I hadn't remembered those light cruisers, but otherwise your impression of things matches my own.

As for the SLN, your comment here reminds me of the old saw about everybody training and equiping for the last war, except that for the SLN there had been no last war. BF's primary function was intimidating people, not fighting them.

It only works until somebody calls your bluff.

Don

cthia wrote:Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

You can only buy ships of the war if they are for sale. There are limits to even SL lunacy...

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

You can only buy ships of the war if they are for sale. There are limits to even SL lunacy...

Don

Ah! Which was going to be my next question. Why would the SLN sell their tech to neobarbs that may end up using it against them? Like America fighting countries armed with their own weaponry.

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

You can only buy ships of the war if they are for sale. There are limits to even SL lunacy...

Don

There is a mention in House of Steel of Manticore building a dozen battleships derived from a Solarian-licensed design. Way back in the early 1600s and supposedly around 1.4 million tons, making it marginally smaller than the Agamemnon-class BC(P). They remained in service with the RMN until 1868.

cthia wrote:Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

Remember that at some point during the PRH's expansionist phase Manticore managed to get the League to approve a military tech export embargo (on both sides, but this was obviously effectively pro-Manticore), and as such selling warships to Haven became illegal. While the odd shady League defense contractor may have been able to slip a small number of light warships past that embargo, capital ships or large numbers would be a much greater challenge and there's a chance of real negative consequences for a company that got caught.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it correct that all that was purchased from the SLN by Haven just Cruisers? Why no ships of the wall? Ships of the Wall contain more examples of tech, right?

Not even any BCs?

Remember that at some point during the PRH's expansionist phase Manticore managed to get the League to approve a military tech export embargo (on both sides, but this was obviously effectively pro-Manticore), and as such selling warships to Haven became illegal. While the odd shady League defense contractor may have been able to slip a small number of light warships past that embargo, capital ships or large numbers would be a much greater challenge and there's a chance of real negative consequences for a company that got caught.

The ships sold were Liberty Class CLs, sold from the reserve when they were being retired. They formed the design of the current Charles Wade Pope CLs in PRN service.

The details were in the Jaynes PRH book and SITS 3, not in the series.

cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:You can only buy ships of the war if they are for sale. There are limits to even SL lunacy...

Don

Ah! Which was going to be my next question. Why would the SLN sell their tech to neobarbs that may end up using it against them? Like America fighting countries armed with their own weaponry.

Someone proposing to fight the Solarian League?! That's simply unthinkable. And, being neobarbs, they have a hard time figuring out what end of the ship to point at an enemy anyway, so sure, sell them all they can afford, it's harmless.