Honorverse ramblings and musings

Has the current population of the MAlign been given anywhere? I wonder about the size of the original population when the Darius system was initially settled and from where did they get people of which to procreate? Earth's current population is only 7.5 billion. Yet the MAlign's population is greater than half that with considerably less time to make whoopee (sex). And the people of earth have no shortage of partners. If the MAlign can produce numbers so quickly then why is there a shortage of naval personnel? What am I missing?

If everyone was basically grown then how did the populations keep pace of each other? The alpha, beta and gamma lines vs. the slave lines. I'm assuming that the slaves are allowed to procreate, because frankly, I can't remember. At any rate, there seems there should be a disparaging gap between the two populations.

I can't remember whether there are any socialization, intermingling restrictions placed on the lines, which would further limit their availability of partners.

wiki wrote:The Mesan Alignment first settled Gamma in the first half of the 18th Century PD. By 1922 PD, the system's total population was close to 3.9 billion, of which two billion were members of the Mesan alpha, beta, or gamma genetic lines. The remainder of the population were genetic slaves. However, they were treated far better than genetic slaves elsewhere, as Darius was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's legal prohibition against gross mistreatment of genetic slaves was actually enforced. Nevertheless, only a few of the system population ever left the system, and those who didn't understood the main activity of ship design and construction to be a defensive effort.

****** *

The space station Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma along with four other stations, producing ships and training crews for the MAN.

Four space stations? Either they are small or there's a lot more going on in that neck of the woods than we think.


Non sequitur. What is the significance of (I suppose of Detweiler design) naming the planet Gamma?

Hi Cthia,

Earth's population in the 20th century PD is well over 30 billion, according to CoS, so is your cited 7.5 B figure referring to today's earth?

Given the MAlign's biotech, Darius's population isn't too surprising, especially if the MAlign had been encouraging such growth for 2-3 centuries.

If anything it could be rather low compared to the potential population, at possible growth rates of 2-3% etc.

Any other ramblings or musings?

L

cthia wrote:Has the current population of the MAlign been given anywhere? I wonder about the size of the original population when the Darius system was initially settled and from where did they get people of which to procreate? Earth's current population is only 7.5 billion. Yet the MAlign's population is greater than half that with considerably less time to make whoopee (sex). And the people of earth have no shortage of partners. If the MAlign can produce numbers so quickly then why is there a shortage of naval personnel? What am I missing?

If everyone was basically grown then how did the populations keep pace of each other? The alpha, beta and gamma lines vs. the slave lines. I'm assuming that the slaves are allowed to procreate, because frankly, I can't remember. At any rate, there seems there should be a disparaging gap between the two populations.

I can't remember whether there are any socialization, intermingling restrictions placed on the lines, which would further limit their availability of partners.

wiki wrote:The Mesan Alignment first settled Gamma in the first half of the 18th Century PD. By 1922 PD, the system's total population was close to 3.9 billion, of which two billion were members of the Mesan alpha, beta, or gamma genetic lines. The remainder of the population were genetic slaves. However, they were treated far better than genetic slaves elsewhere, as Darius was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's legal prohibition against gross mistreatment of genetic slaves was actually enforced. Nevertheless, only a few of the system population ever left the system, and those who didn't understood the main activity of ship design and construction to be a defensive effort.

****** *

The space station Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma along with four other stations, producing ships and training crews for the MAN.

Four space stations? Either they are small or there's a lot more going on in that neck of the woods than we think.


Non sequitur. What is the significance of (I suppose of Detweiler design) naming the planet Gamma?

cthia wrote:

The space station Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma along with four other stations, producing ships and training crews for the MAN.

Four space stations? Either they are small or there's a lot more going on in that neck of the woods than we think.

Prime and four others makes FIVE space stations. The implication is that they are all are (or have) ship yards building sharks and Lennie Dets.

cthia wrote:Non sequitur. What is the significance of (I suppose of Detweiler design) naming the planet Gamma?

I suppose Gamma was settled because Alpha and Beta were too close to Darius (the star) and Delta and any others were too far out.

Actually, except for naming the star 'Darius' the entire system seems to have exceptionally unimaginative names.

cthia wrote:Has the current population of the MAlign been given anywhere? I wonder about the size of the original population when the Darius system was initially settled and from where did they get people of which to procreate? Earth's current population is only 7.5 billion. Yet the MAlign's population is greater than half that with considerably less time to make whoopee (sex). And the people of earth have no shortage of partners. If the MAlign can produce numbers so quickly then why is there a shortage of naval personnel? What am I missing?

If everyone was basically grown then how did the populations keep pace of each other? The alpha, beta and gamma lines vs. the slave lines. I'm assuming that the slaves are allowed to procreate, because frankly, I can't remember. At any rate, there seems there should be a disparaging gap between the two populations.

I can't remember whether there are any socialization, intermingling restrictions placed on the lines, which would further limit their availability of partners.

wiki wrote:The Mesan Alignment first settled Gamma in the first half of the 18th Century PD. By 1922 PD, the system's total population was close to 3.9 billion, of which two billion were members of the Mesan alpha, beta, or gamma genetic lines. The remainder of the population were genetic slaves. However, they were treated far better than genetic slaves elsewhere, as Darius was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's legal prohibition against gross mistreatment of genetic slaves was actually enforced. Nevertheless, only a few of the system population ever left the system, and those who didn't understood the main activity of ship design and construction to be a defensive effort.

****** *

The space station Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma along with four other stations, producing ships and training crews for the MAN.

Four space stations? Either they are small or there's a lot more going on in that neck of the woods than we think.


Non sequitur. What is the significance of (I suppose of Detweiler design) naming the planet Gamma?

lyonheart wrote:Hi Cthia,

Earth's population in the 20th century PD is well over 30 billion, according to CoS, so is your cited 7.5 B figure referring to today's earth?

Given the MAlign's biotech, Darius's population isn't too surprising, especially if the MAlign had been encouraging such growth for 2-3 centuries.

If anything it could be rather low compared to the potential population, at possible growth rates of 2-3% etc.

Any other ramblings or musings?

L

Yes, I was referring to earth of today. Of course, today's earth population growth is limited by economics, birth control and any unwillingness to conceive, but still. The MAlign are restricted to procreating within class. I would imagine alphas with alphas. Betas with betas, etc. Yet the alpha through gamma lines have a population equal to that of the slave lines who, if allowed to procreate, have no restrictions within the line, yet the population of the alpha through gamma lines are still equal to the population of the slave lines. That does not compute less my computer's broken.

But the beginning population of the initial settlement seems to have been up against some unlikely odds to reach such a population so quickly with limited access to suitable partners. Short of possible inbreeding.

cthia wrote:

The space station Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma along with four other stations, producing ships and training crews for the MAN.

Four space stations? Either they are small or there's a lot more going on in that neck of the woods than we think.

Weird Harold wrote:Prime and four others makes FIVE space stations. The implication is that they are all are (or have) ship yards building sharks and Lennie Dets.

cthia wrote:Non sequitur. What is the significance of (I suppose of Detweiler design) naming the planet Gamma?

Weird Harold wrote:I suppose Gamma was settled because Alpha and Beta were too close to Darius (the star) and Delta and any others were too far out.

Actually, except for naming the star 'Darius' the entire system seems to have exceptionally unimaginative names.

Sorry Harold. I thought I read in a thread somewhere that one of the stations was abandoned.

Yes, the names do seem rather unimaginative or—as I was prepared to give credit for some sort of a Detweiler design of a Machiavellian method of madness—the result of the same naming convention that causes inherent anonymity and difficulty of becoming familiar. Not unlike the confusion of anyone trying to relate and become familiar with the unorthodox designations of the Detweiler family members. I certainly get them mixed up.

The population of the Darius System, with only one planet Gamma, is significantly greater than the combined population of the entire three planets of the Manticore System that has been settled, what, three times longer and is (iinm) much richer and is not cut off from humanity or have restrictions set upon their potential mates. And Tester knows that Manticore, with its wars and ravenous butcher bill and need to keep Bupers fed, has even more motivation to increase its population.

Unless the disparaging difference to account for the odd bookkeeping is the unpublished accumulative Manticoran butcher bill which doesn't seem plausible amidst the most successful and powerful navy.

Manticore population = 1.5 B.
Sphinx population = 1.2 B.
Gryphon = 600 M.
----------------------------------
3.3 B

Darius has a total population of 3.9 B.

Heck, the population of Haven is only listed as several billion. 'Course their lack of a much larger population could quite possibly be attributed to their insane butcher bill. LOL

I considered MAlign biotech playing a role. But even that is suspicious. Textev has it that there are many deaths attributed to unsuccessful births and winnowing. And bioengineering successful lines of Detweiler design doesn't happen overnight as textev supports. Though I suppose that once the assembly line gets up and running they can churn them out like wooden toys on a lathe. But then, if that is the case, why a shortage of bodies for the MAN?

And then there is the population of the Inner Onion, by design in my limited understanding of a MAlignant mind, who would want to retain parity with the other populations so as not to become the minority. Yet their "successful" line was dependent on the successes and failures of the other lines -- which seems to imply a later or rather subsequent growth out of the gate.

cthia wrote:The population of the Darius System, with only one planet Gamma, is significantly greater than the combined population of the entire three planets of the Manticore System that has been settled, what, three times longer and is (iinm) much richer and is not cut off from humanity or have restrictions set upon their potential mates. And Tester knows that Manticore, with its wars and ravenous butcher bill and need to keep Bupers fed, has even more motivation to increase its population.

Unless the disparaging difference to account for the odd bookkeeping is the unpublished accumulative Manticoran butcher bill which doesn't seem plausible amidst the most successful and powerful navy.

Manticore population = 1.5 B.
Sphinx population = 1.2 B.
Gryphon = 600 M.
----------------------------------
3.3 B

Darius has a total population of 3.9 B.

Heck, the population of Haven is only listed as several billion. 'Course their lack of a much larger population could quite possibly be attributed to their insane butcher bill. LOL

You should probably use same year (or at least same novel) population numbers.

The Darius numbers come from Mission of Honor. That same book gives the current population of Manticore system as "the permanent population of the Manticore Binary System had grown to just over 3.6 billion, an increase of almost twenty percent in just the past thirty T-years or so"

So a bit closer to the "near vicinity of 3.9 billion" given for the Darius system than the 3.3 you'd found.


But I'd put most of that difference in growth rates down to Manticore having long been an affuent 'first world' system with the relatively low average internal population growth that tends to bring (many couples choosing to have fewer children because of other interests) and, as long as it doesn't look to lead to a demographic crunch (as in current day Japan) the government probably doesn't significantly incentivize population growth. Darius, on the other hand probably does incentivize, if not directly push, population growth. Over a couple centuries it doesn't take much to rapidly grow the population base (assuming resources can keep up).
And if they really wanted to ramp it up quickly they theoretically could directly grow extra future population via in vitro fertilization and 'tubing' and then raising them to maturity in some form of government run creche.

cthia wrote:The population of the Darius System, with only one planet Gamma, is significantly greater than the combined population of the entire three planets of the Manticore System that has been settled, what, three times longer and is (iinm) much richer and is not cut off from humanity or have restrictions set upon their potential mates. And Tester knows that Manticore, with its wars and ravenous butcher bill and need to keep Bupers fed, has even more motivation to increase its population.

Unless the disparaging difference to account for the odd bookkeeping is the unpublished accumulative Manticoran butcher bill which doesn't seem plausible amidst the most successful and powerful navy.

Manticore population = 1.5 B.
Sphinx population = 1.2 B.
Gryphon = 600 M.
----------------------------------
3.3 B

Darius has a total population of 3.9 B.

Heck, the population of Haven is only listed as several billion. 'Course their lack of a much larger population could quite possibly be attributed to their insane butcher bill. LOL

Jonathan_S wrote:You should probably use same year (or at least same novel) population numbers.

The Darius numbers come from Mission of Honor. That same book gives the current population of Manticore system as "the permanent population of the Manticore Binary System had grown to just over 3.6 billion, an increase of almost twenty percent in just the past thirty T-years or so"

So a bit closer to the "near vicinity of 3.9 billion" given for the Darius system than the 3.3 you'd found.

Granted. But as I suspect, it wouldn't make much difference, as while the Manticoran population grew, so too has the MAlign population continued at its own rate keeping pace with or, most likely, further widening the gulf between.

Jonathan_S wrote:But I'd put most of that difference in growth rates down to Manticore having long been an affuent 'first world' system with the relatively low average internal population growth that tends to bring (many couples choosing to have fewer children because of other interests) and, as long as it doesn't look to lead to a demographic crunch (as in current day Japan) the government probably doesn't significantly incentivize population growth. Darius, on the other hand probably does incentivize, if not directly push, population growth. Over a couple centuries it doesn't take much to rapidly grow the population base (assuming resources can keep up).
And if they really wanted to ramp it up quickly they theoretically could directly grow extra future population via in vitro fertilization and 'tubing' and then raising them to maturity in some form of government run creche.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that Jonathan. It is certainly a factor on present day earth, but in the Honorverse, factoring in prolong, couples most likely have children at some point, as Honor's parents said they were meaning to. Although Honor's parents are Commoners and are less affluent than the average Manticoran I'd presume. Certainly for the most part of their lives. People want heirs, especially affluent people. And of course, there is a significant difference in age of respective settlements.

That would be an insanely large nursery to produce such numbers in a couple centuries from the initial settlement and the significant time needed to effect research and begin to produce stock from "successful" genetic "experimentation" and to be government run to boot. And talk about dysfunctional beings caused by a lack of bonding and natural human love and warmth.

And remember, the MAlign were practicing quite a bit of winnowing inferior births.

You are most likely right about the average size of Manticoran families opposed to the MAlign. You have to be for the numbers to have better than a snowballs chance in hell to make sense. But the average number of MAlign families would have to be significantly high.

And again, if the MAlign can simply "ramp up" births then why such a shortage of personnel for the MAN?

Although Honor's parents are Commoners and are less affluent than the average Manticoran I'd presume.

The Harringtons are yeomen. They have fairly substantial stake of land on Sphinx as a result of being part of the second wave of settlers that were able to pay for their immigration following the Plague. That makes them a cut above the decedents of "Zero Balancer" immigrants in terms of social standing, even if it pales in comparison to a patent of nobility. Both of Honor's parents are also highly successful doctors in their own respective fields. They are most definitely above average in terms of income.