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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:21 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.
The short practical answer is, about 80 million km with their current tech.


The long more accurate answer is that there are two different answers to that question.

1] In normal space the FTL signal moves at the speed of light of the Alpha bands, so 62 times faster than the speed of light in normal space. In pure latency terms, if you ignore how far the FTL signal can actually be detected, the distance for latency to equal pre-FTL MDMs max (powered) range would be 62 * 65 million km = 4,030 million km (or 224 light-minutes). That's vastly further than the entire distance inside the hyperlimit[1]

2] However that's usually irrelevant since the limiting factor is the ability to actually transmit the FTL signal detectably that far. The furthest we've seen that signal transmitted is less than 4.5 light-minutes (80.9 million km). So that gives the practical answer from above that shipboard control from a Keyhole II is lower latency than pre-FTL fire control, out to only around 80ish million km (after which it's ineffective due to FTL signal strength/reception issue)



That's why Manticore developed and is deploying Mycroft repeaters throughout their system (or at least the area inside the hyper limit). You need them to take full advantage of the 62x transmission speed-up that Apollo gives; by relaying the signal again and again. (And those can handle a lot more missiles than the improvised Hermes lash-up Honor used)

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[1] Heck, FTL across the hyper limit (~44 light-minute diameter) is only about 50% more lag than a single-drive missile would have.


Of course, and I brought this up before, the missiles should have an unlimited FTL range by proxy if they can be passed off, e.g.,...

"I've shot myself dry Honor."

"Just stay away from them with your accel advantage, Michelle. Use this heading. I've got a massive ballistic Apollo launch coming your way. Take command of them."

In passing missiles off to another ship 150M klicks away, FTL control can be reestablished. I really can't see why this wouldn't be possible. Even w/o Mycroft.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:36 am

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.
The short practical answer is, about 80 million km with their current tech.


The long more accurate answer is that there are two different answers to that question.

1] In normal space the FTL signal moves at the speed of light of the Alpha bands, so 62 times faster than the speed of light in normal space. In pure latency terms, if you ignore how far the FTL signal can actually be detected, the distance for latency to equal pre-FTL MDMs max (powered) range would be 62 * 65 million km = 4,030 million km (or 224 light-minutes). That's vastly further than the entire distance inside the hyperlimit[1]

2] However that's usually irrelevant since the limiting factor is the ability to actually transmit the FTL signal detectably that far. The furthest we've seen that signal transmitted is less than 4.5 light-minutes (80.9 million km). So that gives the practical answer from above that shipboard control from a Keyhole II is lower latency than pre-FTL fire control, out to only around 80ish million km (after which it's ineffective due to FTL signal strength/reception issue)



That's why Manticore developed and is deploying Mycroft repeaters throughout their system (or at least the area inside the hyper limit). You need them to take full advantage of the 62x transmission speed-up that Apollo gives; by relaying the signal again and again. (And those can handle a lot more missiles than the improvised Hermes lash-up Honor used)

------
[1] Heck, FTL across the hyper limit (~44 light-minute diameter) is only about 50% more lag than a single-drive missile would have.
cthia wrote:Of course, and I brought this up before, the missiles should have an unlimited FTL range by proxy if they can be passed off, e.g.,...

"I've shot myself dry Honor."

"Just stay away from them with your accel advantage, Michelle. Use this heading. I've got a massive ballistic Apollo launch coming your way. Take command of them."

In passing missiles off to another ship 150M klicks away, FTL control can be reestablished. I really can't see why this wouldn't be possible. Even w/o Mycroft.


Considering the notion a bit further, I'm certain there'd have to be some sort of protocol for doing so. Like previously submitting passwords and or commands. Or what would prevent cretins like Young, who is afraid of his own shadow, commandeering salvos for his own ends?

That would give a new meaning to shortstopping firepower.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:27 am

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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Of course, and I brought this up before, the missiles should have an unlimited FTL range by proxy if they can be passed off, e.g.,...

"I've shot myself dry Honor."

"Just stay away from them with your accel advantage, Michelle. Use this heading. I've got a massive ballistic Apollo launch coming your way. Take command of them."

In passing missiles off to another ship 150M klicks away, FTL control can be reestablished. I really can't see why this wouldn't be possible. Even w/o Mycroft.


Considering the notion a bit further, I'm certain there'd have to be some sort of protocol for doing so. Like previously submitting passwords and or commands. Or what would prevent cretins like Young, who is afraid of his own shadow, commandeering salvos for his own ends?

That would give a new meaning to shortstopping firepower.

The missiles would need some protection against getting hi-jacked - if for nothing else than to keep the enemy from attempting to send orders to drive them off target.

Though right now the problem seems to be getting SD(P)s to live long enough to exhaust their onboard pods - no point in worry about what comes next when combat ends, one way or the other, while you've still got pods onboard. And you (currently) need a warship the size of an SD can control missiles via FTL. So while you might be able to fire Mk23's past a forward LAC - BC squadron and have them provide terminal targeting they'd be doing so via radio. They'd have to be suicidally close to the enemy to provide quicker control that you're launch SD(P)s did.
[If the SD(P)s are firing at apparent max Apollo range, 4.5 lightminutes they've got a oneway lag of 4.36 seconds. That's equal to radio lag of 1.3 million km, nearly all the way down to energy range]

So the handoff for unlimited range tactic only works via FTL if you've got a detached group of SD(P)s w/ Keyhole II downrange and they're fighting somebody that can survive a full pod load of Apollo yet can't destroy the detached isolated force. Via radio you could of course use it to engage an enemy beyond 81 million km, but you suffer major accuracy penalties due to the lightspeed control your forward force has to use. And while the extra throw weight might be appreciated they have to be able to survive until your missiles get there for them to control.


Let's assume we've got a force out at 80 million km and we want to fire past them against an enemy an additional 50 million km past that (about the max effective lighspeed control distance for MDMs). It'll take our SD(P)'s Apollo missiles 630 seconds to coast out to the forwards force and a total of 940 seconds to reach the enemy out at 130 million km.
Again an enemy with even just Cataphracts, which'd have to coast to make 50 million km, it takes only 650 seconds to reach our forward force. That gives them time to land almost 10 salvos before our Apollo birds strike back! You'd need a very odd force composition to be able to withstand that pounding long enough to target the Apollo's onto the enemy, yet not able to kill the enemy sooner with just their onboard missiles. (A gaggle of Sag-B's maybe?)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:13 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Of course, and I brought this up before, the missiles should have an unlimited FTL range by proxy if they can be passed off, e.g.,...

"I've shot myself dry Honor."

"Just stay away from them with your accel advantage, Michelle. Use this heading. I've got a massive ballistic Apollo launch coming your way. Take command of them."

In passing missiles off to another ship 150M klicks away, FTL control can be reestablished. I really can't see why this wouldn't be possible. Even w/o Mycroft.


Considering the notion a bit further, I'm certain there'd have to be some sort of protocol for doing so. Like previously submitting passwords and or commands. Or what would prevent cretins like Young, who is afraid of his own shadow, commandeering salvos for his own ends?

That would give a new meaning to shortstopping firepower.
Jonathan_S wrote:The missiles would need some protection against getting hi-jacked - if for nothing else than to keep the enemy from attempting to send orders to drive them off target.

Though right now the problem seems to be getting SD(P)s to live long enough to exhaust their onboard pods - no point in worry about what comes next when combat ends, one way or the other, while you've still got pods onboard. And you (currently) need a warship the size of an SD can control missiles via FTL. So while you might be able to fire Mk23's past a forward LAC - BC squadron and have them provide terminal targeting they'd be doing so via radio. They'd have to be suicidally close to the enemy to provide quicker control that you're launch SD(P)s did.
[If the SD(P)s are firing at apparent max Apollo range, 4.5 lightminutes they've got a oneway lag of 4.36 seconds. That's equal to radio lag of 1.3 million km, nearly all the way down to energy range]

So the handoff for unlimited range tactic only works via FTL if you've got a detached group of SD(P)s w/ Keyhole II downrange and they're fighting somebody that can survive a full pod load of Apollo yet can't destroy the detached isolated force. Via radio you could of course use it to engage an enemy beyond 81 million km, but you suffer major accuracy penalties due to the lightspeed control your forward force has to use. And while the extra throw weight might be appreciated they have to be able to survive until your missiles get there for them to control.


Let's assume we've got a force out at 80 million km and we want to fire past them against an enemy an additional 50 million km past that (about the max effective lighspeed control distance for MDMs). It'll take our SD(P)'s Apollo missiles 630 seconds to coast out to the forwards force and a total of 940 seconds to reach the enemy out at 130 million km.
Again an enemy with even just Cataphracts, which'd have to coast to make 50 million km, it takes only 650 seconds to reach our forward force. That gives them time to land almost 10 salvos before our Apollo birds strike back! You'd need a very odd force composition to be able to withstand that pounding long enough to target the Apollo's onto the enemy, yet not able to kill the enemy sooner with just their onboard missiles. (A gaggle of Sag-B's maybe?)


I'm sure your logic is correct. But do consider the possibility that the enemy force has not been treated to a single launch, yet. Michelle or any other CO, who could be aboard a Keyhole II equipped ship, shot herself dry previously cleaning the system out of riff raff, then, IN hypers another force. New. Undamaged. Loaded for bear. And poor lil ole Michelle has already shot herself dry creating orbital debris.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with the notion of the RMN force "turning retreating in the face of being shot dry" into simply keeping the range open, after learning the cavalry has come but are out of range.

Think of a similar situation in which Honor found herself in, if Hamish's Reliant -- that was out of range -- had been able to send her some firepower when she was battling the Thunder of God. Which is the particular scenario, incidentally, responsible for my first conception of the notion.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:58 am

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Did the SLN always have the ability to include a ballistic segment into their launches, or did an iteration of Cataphract add that ability? If they already had that ability before the war began, then that one aspect surpasses the Manties because the RMN only added the ability during the war with Haven. No?

I can't see the League needing the ability before fighting the jumped-up neobarbs.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by The E   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:17 am

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cthia wrote:Did the SLN always have the ability to include a ballistic segment into their launches, or did an iteration of Cataphract add that ability? If they already had that ability before the war began, then that one aspect surpasses the Manties because the RMN only added the ability during the war with Haven. No?

I can't see the League needing the ability before fighting the jumped-up neobarbs.


The RMN always had the ability to do ballistic segments in their MDMs, but they rightly concluded that that ability was not actually useful in first-gen MDMs because the attainable range far exceeded the effective fire control range. Plus, given who they were fighting, they didn't need to use ballistic segments; the range advantage they did have over controllable distances was decisive enough.

The SLN, on the other hand, has no such luxury. They need to use ballistic segments in order to achieve parity with GA MDMs, given that the GA now has the fire control capability to use this tactic in ship-to-ship combat.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:21 am

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cthia wrote:Did the SLN always have the ability to include a ballistic segment into their launches, ...


No. Until Manticore introduced the first generation MDMs, nobody had the ability to include a ballistic segment other than letting the missiles coast ballistic after their engines quit. Virtually every navy had the capability to orient the lasing rods and target an objective after coasting beyond powered range, but nobody had the ability to turn missile engines back on.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:00 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Did the SLN always have the ability to include a ballistic segment into their launches, ...


No. Until Manticore introduced the first generation MDMs, nobody had the ability to include a ballistic segment other than letting the missiles coast ballistic after their engines quit. Virtually every navy had the capability to orient the lasing rods and target an objective after coasting beyond powered range, but nobody had the ability to turn missile engines back on.


White Haven used a ballistic component on his SDMs to help HMS Fearless during the Second Battle of Yeltsin, exactly as described above.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:49 am

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munroburton wrote:White Haven used a ballistic component on his SDMs to help HMS Fearless during the Second Battle of Yeltsin, exactly as described above.


And there's only one reason that worked: Saladin (aka Thunder of God) was already sufficiently damaged, so she couldn't detect anything beyond radar range.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:35 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:
munroburton wrote:White Haven used a ballistic component on his SDMs to help HMS Fearless during the Second Battle of Yeltsin, exactly as described above.


And there's only one reason that worked: Saladin (aka Thunder of God) was already sufficiently damaged, so she couldn't detect anything beyond radar range.


Unpowered ballistic launches can't generally be considered effective against mobile ships, even against brainless Sollies.

Besides, I always considered the ballistic launch used by Hamish to be a bit reckless. Recall the days of the Old West when a fugitive grabbed someone's wife and held her as a shield...

"Be careful there hotshot. You might just hit me!"

Hamish could have taken Fearless out had she maneuvered just right.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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