Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 11 guests

Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:29 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8466
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

We rewrote the book on EEV.

then

We rewrote the book on the kamakaze pilot
.
They have no soul. They only live to die. They die at our will.




It certainly seems that the MAlign are much further ahead in the training methods. They certainly rewrote the book on that.
wiki wrote:Kamikaze

Training

When you eliminate all thoughts about life and death, you will be able to totally disregard your earthly life. This will also enable you to concentrate your attention on eradicating the enemy with unwavering determination, meanwhile reinforcing your excellence in flight skills.

— excerpt from a kamikaze pilots' manual

Tokkōtai pilot training, as described by Takeo Kasuga, generally "consisted of incredibly strenuous training, coupled with cruel and torturous corporal punishment as a daily routine." Daikichi Irokawa, who trained at Tsuchiura Naval Air Base, recalled that he "was struck on the face so hard and frequently that [his] face was no longer recognizable." He also wrote: "I was hit so hard that I could no longer see and fell on the floor. The minute I got up, I was hit again by a club so that I would confess." This brutal "training" was justified by the idea that it would instill a "soldier's fighting spirit", but daily beatings and corporal punishment eliminated patriotism among many pilots.

Pilots were given a manual which detailed how they were supposed to think, prepare and attack. From this manual, pilots were told to "attain a high level of spiritual training," and to "keep [their] health in the very best condition." These things, among others, were meant to put the pilot into the mindset in which he would be mentally ready to die.

The tokkōtai pilot's manual also explained how a pilot may turn back if the pilot could not locate a target and that "[a pilot] should not waste [his] life lightly." One pilot who continually came back to base was shot after his ninth return.

We tried to live with 120 percent intensity, rather than waiting for death. We read and read, trying to understand why we had to die in our early twenties. We felt the clock ticking away towards our death, every sound of the clock shortening our lives.Irokawa Daikichi, Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers

The manual was very detailed in how a pilot should attack. A pilot would dive towards his target and "aim for a point between the bridge tower and the smoke stacks". Entering a smoke stack was also said to be "effective". Pilots were told not to aim at a ship's bridge tower or gun turret but instead to look for elevators or the flight deck to crash into. For horizontal attacks, the pilot was to "aim at the middle of the vessel, slightly higher than the waterline" or to "aim at the entrance to the aircraft hangar, or the bottom of the stack" if the former was too difficult.

The tokkōtai pilot's manual told pilots never to close their eyes. This was because if a pilot closed his eyes he would lower the chances of hitting his target. In the final moments before the crash, the pilot was to yell "Hissatsu" (必殺) at the top of his lungs which translates to "Certain Kill".

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:24 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8466
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

The E wrote:
cthia wrote:Yet the economist in the flesh wasn't needed to do that. Simply his analysis on chip. Grayson has their own financial analysts and economists. In fact, it is obvious that Houseman should never have even been present for the initial round of discussions. Houseman's part should have come at another meeting, long after the goose was pretty much already cooked.


I would argue that having a subject matter expert on hand is pretty much required, no matter how good your prepared documents are.

cthia wrote:It was obvious to me that Courvoisier's delegation skills were lacking in this case as well. Why was Courvoisier chosen to head the delegation?


Because Manticore apparently has a tradition of using flag officers or retired flag officers as their diplomatic envoys in senior positions. Because Grayson, as a country still at war with their immediate neighbour and heading into a bigger war between their bigger neighbours, might want to talk to someone who knows the realities of combat.




This is an excellent post and very poignant. There are no buts really, but it does allow me to highlight my own concerns. Yet in no way detracts from your excellent post.

So again...

1. I would argue that having a subject matter expert on hand is pretty much required, no matter how good your prepared documents are. --The E.

2. Because Manticore apparently has a tradition of using flag officers or retired flag officers as their diplomatic envoys in senior positions. --The E.

Yet,

⇒ 2. negates 1.

It leads to my main objection. Manticore didn't carry that thought across the board and may have failed in the most important endeavor. You also need an expert diplomat. Courvoisier was not an expert diplomat i.e., he is not a diplomat by trade. And it showed. He wasn't the worse you could do no, but I always thought that Courvoisier should have been First in Command of the mission but Second in Command at the diplomatic table. Courvoisier would then be able to pull rank and yank the entire mission out of the crapper if need be. But he should have yielded to what another true diplomat had to say. Courvoisier should have at least had a real diplomat along to steer the ship. He didn't quite understand the religious implications and the subtleties of diplomacy much better than Honor. For instance if it were the Japanese that they were dealing with they would have long since killed the mission with too many grave social, cultural and political faux pas. Which was gravely made against our Japanese-like (where it mattered most) counterparts in Grayson.

Honor should never have been chosen for this mission. She represented mud in the eye to the Graysons. Every female aboard ship did as well. Just because 'alls well that ended well' doesn't mean it was the best choice out of the gate.

Matter of factory, if the enemy hadn't attacked when they did, thereby focusing everybody's thoughts on the more important matter of survival, the mission may have gone down the crapper, quickly. The attack of the enemy turned out to be the mission's savior. Not the first time the breakout of war actually assisted the political climate.

I think it was an overall disrespectful diplomatic effort. It certainly didn't seem like they were following Elizabeth's order to "Bring back a treaty at all costs."

Respecting the Graysons's most important concept regarding women would have been prudent. Manticore dodges a pulsar.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the following mindset was totally lacking...

Doing Business in Japan: 10 Etiquette Rules You Should Know

August 05, 2013

"A traveler without observation," said Persian poet Saadi, "is a bird without wings.” The same can be said of a business traveler doing business in a foreign country. Observing another culture's etiquette opens doors to more successful communications. This is of particular importance when doing business in Japan, where cultural elements can have a profound impact on decision-making and, ultimately, on the effectiveness of a business relationship.

As Boye Lafayette De Mente said in Etiquette Guide to Japan:

Know the Rules that Make the Difference, "Japan is an example of a country in which the code of social conduct became so formal ... and important, that proper behavior became the paramount law of the land."

There is an element of sophistication and worldliness to those who can effortlessly navigate in foreign waters. It signals executive presence. It also bespeaks of a concern for civility, grace and consideration of others, which doesn't go unnoticed. It almost always has a boomerang effect, especially because it isn't the norm. Many people assume that what is logical and common practice in our home turf is also ipso facto the right path in the rest of the world. This mindset can inadvertently work against what we are trying to accomplish. So, before packing your briefcase to travel to Japan, it pays to spend some time to acquaint yourself with the values and accepted behavior patterns of that country. Adherence to protocol will give you an edge and create a favorable impression of you and, by extension, your business.

It's also important to understand that observance of cultural norms varies from individual to individual within a culture. Communication takes place between one human being and another, and not, of course, between one culture and another. So, when we consider matters of cultural etiquette, it's prudent to approach these as guidelines rather than gospel. When in doubt, it pays to err on the side of conservatism.

With this in mind, let's take a look at Japan's values and what it means for you in observing the country's etiquette rules:


Silence is Golden

In a business setting, silence is valued over an overabundance of talking. As Larry Samovar, Richard Porter and Edwin McDaniel put it in Communication Between Cultures, "silence is linked to credibility." Silence speaks loudly about wisdom and emotional self-control. This may run counter to our approach back at home, where being more outgoing can facilitate communication. A more introverted, formal approach, especially at the beginning of a business relationship, is likely to be better received when doing business in Japan. The Japanese have many proverbs that signal the importance that they place on silence, such as, "The duck that quacks is the first to get shot." Take a cue from your Japanese counterparts and tailor your approach.
World Business Culture, a company that specializes in global cultural differences, made this astute observation about silence: "In times of stress or difficulty during a meeting, the Japanese will often resort to silence in order to release the tension in the room and allow people to move away from the area of difficulty (to preserve harmony which is tantamount)." Resist the urge to fill the silence with more talk about an issue your Japanese counterpart would rather avoid at the moment.

Group Solidarity is Paramount

It's widely known that Japan is a group-oriented culture—group solidarity is valued over individualism. There is strength in the group, as the famous Japanese saying implies: "A single arrow is easily broken, but not ten in a bundle." This cultural mindset impacts certain behaviors such as how praise is received. While we value individual contributions and strongly believe in recognition and individual praise, the opposite is true in Japan. Singling out an individual in the group for special recognition, no matter how helpful he is to you, is likely to embarrass that individual. Always remember that the team concept is very important for the Japanese and strive to give public credit to the entire group.

Business Cards are Talismans

For Japanese business professionals, a business card (Meishi, pronounced "MAY-SHEE") is an extension of their identity. Therefore, it's important to observe some engrained rules of etiquette that signal respect for the person. Accept the card with both hands, briefly read it and place it in your business card holder if you are standing; if you are seated, place it on the table for the duration of the meeting and then place it in your business card holder. It's considered a big faux pas to place their business card in your back pocket or wallet. When presenting your business card, have the Japanese-printed side facing the person you are offering it to, and give your card with both hands. Even if you are sitting far away from the person in a group, don't toss or push the card across the table. Get up and walk over to them.

Age Equals Seniority

Notwithstanding the many changes in modern Japan, age is revered in that country and can be synonymous with rank in a business setting. A survey of companies in the Nikkei 225 Index shows that the CEOs of these companies were consistently older than those of other countries, with an average age of 62. The youngest CEO was 43. Hierarchy is paramount. Treat older executives with a more marked deference than you do younger ones in the group you're interacting with. For example, be sure to greet the most senior person before you greet others. Likewise, offer your business card to the senior person first.

Hard Sell Doesn't Sell

A hard-sell approach will not succeed in Japan. Replace the high pressure, confrontational approach with a more gentle, persuasive presentation that showcases the virtues of what you are proposing. Find points of agreement and build on those. Don't drive too hard on decisions and deadlines. Understand that the Japanese decision-making style is by consensus—trying to speed up the process may appear to be disrespectful of their way of doing business. Rather than be impatient, try to see the long process as an opportunity to build trust and cement the relationship.

Privacy is Valued

Japanese people are notoriously private and reserved. As businessman Jeffrey Hays puts it: "Privacy is important in Japan. People can have their names removed from phone books if they want. Windows are designed so people can't look in." So, asking a lot of personal questions at the beginning of the relationship—which to us is a way of building rapport—may be regarded as pushy or rude. This might be the reason why Japan lags the world in social media adoption. According to a 2012 article in Ad Age Digital, only 28 percent of Japanese Internet users visit social media sites on a monthly basis, and time spent on social networking in that country is a mere 2.9 percent, compared to 16.8 percent in the U.S.

What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

We all know that a business gift exchange is an important tradition in Japan, especially at the first meeting. What can possibly go wrong when giving a small gift? Many things, it seems: Flowers such as lilies, lotus blossoms and camellias are used for funeral services and should, therefore, be avoided. The same applies for any white flowers. Potted plants also carry negative superstitions. And buying a set of four of anything is deemed unlucky. The number nine is also inauspicious. Furthermore, if you send Christmas cards, avoid red, as funeral notices are customarily printed in red.

Chopstick Manners Speak Loudly

Unlike on airlines, wipe your hands only, not your face, on the damp towel (o-shibori) provided at the start of the meal. When you serve yourself from shared dishes, if there are no utensils for serving yourself, use the opposite end of your chopsticks to pick up food to add to your plate. Don't use chopsticks to pierce food—pick it up, even if it is slippery. When you finish eating, leave your place setting close to how you found it; this means placing your used chopsticks in their paper envelopes or holder, and replacing lids on small dishes. It may have been quaint at one time to be ignorant about the different types of sushi. Today, with the prevalence of sushi restaurants in North America, it pays to know some of these differences so as not to appear unsophisticated.

Honor the Unofficial Dress Code

The operative word here for business clothes is conservative. Men wear conservative business suits and blend in with the group. Women are encouraged to keep jewelry to a minimum so as not to stand out. It is also considered in good taste for women not to wear high heels if this results in towering over their male Japanese counterpart. And if you wear a kimono, says Terri Morrison, in Doing Business in Japan, "wrap it left over right! Only corpses wear them wrapped right over left."

The Small Stuff Matters

Observing the small details of politeness is a big way of showing respect in Japan. For example, blowing your nose in public, such as in a meeting room, is considered in poor taste; best to excuse yourself and walk out. We all know about taking our shoes off at the door, and wearing the slippers your Japanese host will provide. However, it doesn't stop there. When invited to a Japanese home, you might have to remove your slippers once inside if you encounter a tatami floor—a type of mat, which should only be stepped on with bare feet or socks. If you go to the washroom, you have yet another pair of slippers that's reserved for use in the washroom. Remember to remove them before going back to your seat. While you're not expected to know all of this, it's noticed and appreciated when you do. It simply means you've done some homework to honor your hosts. There is a lot of goodwill in this—or as David Syrad, CEO of AKI Japan Ltd., put it: "Use your knowledge of Japanese business etiquette to demonstrate your flexibility and sensibility." It will pay dividends.

You can gain more information in this area from sites such as Japan Business Etiquette, Culture, and Manners, and Terri Morrison's book: Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands (The Bestselling Guide to Doing Business in More than 60 Countries.)

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Duckk   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:03 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4091
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:29 pm

Again, what makes you think Courvoisier's mission was a disaster? He was making solid inroads with the Graysons before the Masadan attack. Was it bumpy? Yes. But that's an inevitable consequence of dealing with a culture that developed for a thousand years in isolation. He was succeeding, despite that.

And as for the idea of making 50% of the Star Kingdom's population vanish for the Graysons, the politest way I can put it is that's bullshit. There is no way you're going to pretend that women don't exist when the freaking nation is run by a woman. Every toast, every official communique - hell, every T-shirt - is going to have the words Her Majesty on it. There's no point beating around the bush with that, so sending a female officer, commanding integrated crews, gets the pain out of the way early instead of having it blow up later. This is all laid out in chapter 7 of HotQ.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by The E   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:03 pm

The E
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:28 pm
Location: Paderborn, Germany

cthia wrote:Honor should never have been chosen for this mission. She represented mud in the eye to the Graysons. Every female aboard ship did as well. Just because 'alls well that ended well' doesn't mean it was the best choice out of the gate.


Funnily enough, that exact topic came up in HotQ. The counterpoint is obvious: Manticore wasn't willing to indulge the Graysons any more than they had to. If they weren't ready to enter into a military alliance with Manticore and work together with the RMN and all its personnel, there was no point in continuing the discussion. The makeup of Honor's convoy in its entirety was planned before they ever set out from Manticore, and the affronts inherent in it were seen as a necessary point to make.

Matter of factory, if the enemy hadn't attacked when they did, thereby focusing everybody's thoughts on the more important matter of survival, the mission may have gone down the crapper, quickly. The attack of the enemy turned out to be the mission's savior. Not the first time the breakout of war actually assisted the political climate.


This is arguably wrong. The attacks pretty much sealed the deal, but even before then, most of the hard work of making the mission a success had been done by Courvoisier and Yanakov.

I think it was an overall disrespectful diplomatic effort. It certainly didn't seem like they were following Elizabeth's order to "Bring back a treaty at all costs."


The other side of that coin was to not misrepresent what Manticore is. If they had sent a delegation that conformed to the Grayson's expectations entirely, they would have laid the groundwork for massive amounts of friction later on; this way, with Manticore being up front about what and who they are, Grayson can't claim they weren't warned.

Respecting the Graysons's most important concept regarding women would have been prudent. Manticore dodges a pulsar.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the following mindset was totally lacking...


All of which is irrelevant. Manticore and Grayson aren't negotiating as equals. Manticore has a hard offer for tech and knowledge and trade connections, Grayson has ... basing rights. Manticore wants to make Grayson a full partner of the Alliance (which is the true incentive they're offering), but from a true Machtpolitik point of view, they do not need to offer that much. While being respectful to Grayson's eccentricities is nice, Grayson also needs to realize that their way of life must change if they are to enter an (or for that matter any) alliance with another star nation (a fact of which the Grayson leadership is acutely aware).
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:14 pm

ldwechsler
Captain of the List

Posts: 418
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

This is an excellent post and very poignant. There are no buts really, but it does allow me to highlight my own concerns. Yet in no way detracts from your excellent post.

So again...

1. I would argue that having a subject matter expert on hand is pretty much required, no matter how good your prepared documents are. --The E.

2. Because Manticore apparently has a tradition of using flag officers or retired flag officers as their diplomatic envoys in senior positions. --The E.

Yet,

⇒ 2. negates 1.

It leads to my main objection. Manticore didn't carry that thought across the board and may have failed in the most important endeavor. You also need an expert diplomat. Courvoisier was not an expert diplomat i.e., he is not a diplomat by trade. And it showed. He wasn't the worse you could do no, but I always thought that Courvoisier should have been First in Command of the mission but Second in Command at the diplomatic table. Courvoisier would then be able to pull rank and yank the entire mission out of the crapper if need be. But he should have yielded to what another true diplomat had to say. Courvoisier should have at least had a real diplomat along to steer the ship. He didn't quite understand the religious implications and the subtleties of diplomacy much better than Honor. For instance if it were the Japanese that they were dealing with they would have long since killed the mission with too many grave social, cultural and political faux pas. Which was gravely made against our Japanese-like (where it mattered most) counterparts in Grayson.

Honor should never have been chosen for this mission. She represented mud in the eye to the Graysons. Every female aboard ship did as well. Just because 'alls well that ended well' doesn't mean it was the best choice out of the gate.







Most diplomatic delegations have more than a few members. Corvoisier was the leader. Smart, since he has the creds to carry through a deal. And it effectively is a military deal.

HAving an economics is just a smart move. There would undoubtedly be a lot of economic impact from a treaty.

And, frankly, Honor being there was deliberate and, to my mind, correct. Grayson had to understand Manticore's structure. Yes, a lot of the men didn't. Actually, we soon saw that the women ran a lot of the show but did it indirectly, by influencing their husbands.

However, Manticore wanted to make it clear that changes would have to be made if they wanted the deal. Had Grayson not changed, chances are the whole deal would have collapsed. Would Manticore have to create special crews that were all-male? And so forth.

Manticore did not feel it needed Grayson. They didn't know about the Peeps working with the Masadans or at least how much assistance was being given.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:17 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8466
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Duckk wrote:Again, what makes you think Courvoisier's mission was a disaster? He was making solid inroads with the Graysons before the Masadan attack. Was it bumpy? Yes. But that's an inevitable consequence of dealing with a culture that developed for a thousand years in isolation. He was succeeding, despite that.

And as for the idea of making 50% of the Star Kingdom's population vanish for the Graysons, the politest way I can put it is that's bullshit. There is no way you're going to pretend that women don't exist when the freaking nation is run by a woman. Every toast, every official communique - hell, every T-shirt - is going to have the words Her Majesty on it. There's no point beating around the bush with that, so sending a female officer, commanding integrated crews, gets the pain out of the way early instead of having it blow up later. This is all laid out in chapter 7 of HotQ.


It was a boderline disaster. Women were molested and assaulted. Honor was forced to leave the system because she shouldn't have been there in the first place—leaving the system inadequately protected—resulting in the Admiral's death. In fact, Honor was on her way back with blood in her eye to really rouse the Graysons which may or may not have went well if her contingent wasn't attacked upon reentering the system.

I disagree Duckk. It certainly turned out ok, but more because of the efforts of the Havenites, ironically, but not because it was a stellar diplomatic effort. Not by a loooong shot. IMO.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by The E   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:39 pm

The E
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:28 pm
Location: Paderborn, Germany

cthia wrote:I disagree Duckk. It certainly turned out ok, but more because of the efforts of the Havenites, ironically, but not because it was a stellar diplomatic effort. Not by a loooong shot. IMO.


You are ignoring what's written in the text though.

I would refer you to Chapters 8 and 11. 8 is where Courvoisier and Yanakov talk about how Grayson has wronged one Captain Harrington, and where Yanakov talks explicitly about how much Grayson wants to ally with Manticore and their cognizance of the fact that their way of life can't continue unaltered.

Chapter 11 has, to my knowledge, the only "negotiation" scene. It is also where Houseman puts his foot in his primary nutrient intake, incidentally. Do note the tone of the scene, and how that portion of it ends:
"Now, then," he said as if nothing had happened, "as I was saying, Mr. Chancellor, we will assist your naval expansion in any way we can. Of course, as you yourself have indicated, you have other needs, as well. The equipment and materials already being transferred from our freighters to your custody will make a start towards meeting some of them, but their long-term solution is going to be an extensive and difficult task. Balancing them against your military requirements will require some careful tradeoffs and allocations, and I'm sure Mr. Houseman will agree that the best way to meet all of them will be to upgrade your own industrial and technical base. And I think we can assume your major trading partner will be Manticore, not Masada, at least—" he allowed himself a wintry smile "—for the foreseeable future."

A ripple of laughter with an undeniable undertone of relief answered from the Grayson side of the table, and Houseman's face turned ugly for just a moment, then smoothed into professional non-expression.

"I believe that's probably a safe assumption," Prestwick agreed.

"Then we'll proceed on that basis," Courvosier said calmly. He glanced back at his economic adviser, and there was a hint of steel in his voice as he said, again, "Mr. Houseman?"

"Well, yes, of course," Houseman said. "I was merely—" He cut himself off and forced a smile. "In that case, Mr. Chancellor, I suppose we should first consider the question of government guarantees for loans to Grayson industrial consortiums. After that—"

The last of the strain dissipated among the Grayson delegates, and Yanakov leaned back with a sigh of relief. He met Courvosier's eyes across the table, and the two of them exchanged a brief smile.


I have highlighted the relevant exchange. It is clear to me that, at this point in the proceedings, the alliance treaty is as good as signed, it's only a matter of nailing down a few details. The Houseman incident is the only major speed bump mentioned in there on the diplomatic side, and it is handled smoothly and efficiently at the table.

Whatever else happened, at this point, the negotiations were already a success.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:47 pm

Brigade XO
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

The Peeps specificaly kept any indication that they had women in their navy out of obvious sight in dealings with Masada. That would show a good, solid approch to any kind of advance to bring what they clearly see as a very odd, very poor and very dangerous culture into the cluster of Haven conquests. We see in the text that Haven clearly expected major problems with the Faithfull as they rigged a number of systems to disable the ships in the event of a hostile take over. They also were playing along with The Faithfull's view on Grayson and particularly with Manticore. Role playing.
Haven has to clear goals in dealing with Masada. One is getting the basing rights both at Masada and keeping Manticore away from Grayson.
The second is probably pulling Grayson, which is clearly the stronger economy, away from any dealings with Manticore and into the Haven Co-Prosperity Sphear.

Masada is just a tool to keep both systems out of Manticore's treaty partners. Masada itself really doesn't have anything else that Haven wants. Grayson, however, is actualy a good fit for Haven. It has a very good economic base for it's location and history. It can be a net contributor to pumping materials and money into the Haven monster.

Masada is an answer to Haven's needs. Haven doesn't have to attack Grayson, let "Masada" do it and then just absorb both. Grayson clearly doesn't trust Haven and, a the planets in the Verge look on OFS. Grayson understands that have really only has two interests in Grayson. 1st is a base against Manticore and 2nd another source of materials to feed the insatiable appetite Haven has displayed.

Lets say that the Masada plan works -the one Masada is running, not the Peep plan. Masada captures Grayson after obliteating the orbital defenses and what little Navy Grayson has. Then it begins the elimnation of all things heretical and installing its own leaders to rule Grayson.........and Haven, basing treaty in-hand, shows up with a pair of task forces to interdict the remaining ships of the Masada Navy and imposes martial law on both planets as it sets up it's new advanced base in-system in the drive to out maneuver Manticore. Who exactly is going to be able to tell what is going on in both systems?
Masada (well, Haven acting as the ruling councle of The Faithfull) closes the Masadan system to ALL non-allied ships. Nutcase Theocracies can get away with that, keeping unexceptabl contamination out of the homeworld. They also do the same for Grayson, which has been returned to the LIght of the True Faith.
Grayson had a vastly better economy and even a small merchant marine in addition to haveing some external trade. So they shut access to the planet down and force any traffic to transship goods WAY out in the system until they are able to set up a partitioned orbital transfer station where nobody from the outside gets to interact with much beyond the administrative staff and security -and that mostly by comm. That Haven has ships in-system is explained by the mutial defence and treaty agreements and who is going to contest that. Just how many MSDF ships "purchased" from Haven does it take to police and manage traffic around Grayson. Manticore and almost everybody else is just not allowed.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:32 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5481
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Honor was selected for the Grayson mission for reasons beyond her being a woman. But she did make mistakes out of, I think, over sensitivity to the reactionary conservative part of Grayson.

Yes there was a harassment incident, though IIRC Grayson punished those involved as soon as it came to light. IOW even within the parochial culture of Grayson that was seen as over the line. But Honor failing to assert herself apparently contributed, despite that being the last thing she'd want, to her most junior female crew refusing to report harassment against them.

But the reasons to include Honor do make real sense, highlighting her role in the Basilisk incident, and hence reminding everyone of Haven's tendencies to absentmindedly absorb their neighbors as well as letting Grayson leaders familiarize themselves with her as a person and combat leader to show Haven's version of the incident (and show trial afterwards) were obvious nonsense.
But possibly she should have been an acting flag captain under a (female) commodore in charge of the convoy escort.
That risks undermining the show of belief in her command competence by making it seem she's not trusted with larger independent command - but would let Manticore include a more experienced, self confident, leader without undermining their point that females are a fully equal part of their society and military.

But I still don't see the diplomatic mission as a disaster, nor do I feel the Masadan attacks were the only thing that saved it.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:02 pm

pnakasone
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:21 pm

Diplomatic negotiations are always a balancing act of showing respect for the other sides cultural rules but at the same time keeping faith to your own sides cultural rules. With cultures as different as Manticores and Greysons missteps where inevitable by both sides.

Honor's actions from her smacking down Houseman threw taking her command in to the final battle with the Thunder of God spoke loader then any words of Manticores commitment to their offers of alliance.

If nothing else Honor made it clear that the honor of her Kingdom, her Queen, and her own was stake in proving to Grayson that Manticore was willing to stand by it promises to help them. Greysons understood that kind of thinking as it fit well with their culture.
Top

Return to Honorverse